QF schedule Vietnam war

[Aussie Bob]

Although it is off topic, it is hard to leave this thread without some statistics ...
Here are a few of them:

82% of veterans who saw heavy combat strongly believe the war was lost because of a lack of political will.

2.59 million Americas saw service in Vietnam
The US flew 1,899,688 sorties and dropped 6,727,084 tons bombs on Indo China, compared with the 270,000 tons of bombs dropped on Germany during the Second World War
3,500,000 acres of Vietnam was sprayed with 19 million gallons of Defoliants. the effects that will last 100 years.
352 Billion Dollars (US) spent on the war

The full list including atrocities committed by both sides is also available online to anyone with a modicum of computer skills as is the staggering amount of money spent by Russia and China supporting the Vietnamese.

I guess the Vietnamese did win the war with propaganda and outside support, they certainly lacked the ability to retaliate. I find it staggering that Australians supported this madness and I do have trouble understanding that some still believe this was a "just" war.

[CaptainMidnight]

Further OT, but -

Some (a very small part) of my views were influenced by visiting "The Museum of American War Crimes" in Ho Chi Minh City.

A well known biased source. "Winners" are grinners, and can - and do - write their own "history".

I find it staggering that Australians supported this madness and I do have trouble understanding that some still believe this was a "just" war.

The link below might explain.

The Viet Cong were committing atrocities on their people and the communist bloc (particularly the USSR) were spreading their influence and inciting uprisings around the globe wherever they could.

Should we have sat back and done nothing? They were different times, and who knows what may have happened if the USSR and China had been allowed to bring the whole country under their influence in the early 1960's.

Why Australia entered the War, Why did Australia become involved in the Vietnam War?, Australia in the Vietnam War Era, History Year 9, NSW | Online Education Home Schooling Skwirk Australia

[Anotherday]

Only Question is if Nixon had stayed in and made good on his threat to carpet bomb any NVA who crossed the border formed from the Peace Accord of '75. And the NVA had stuck to the Peace Accord instead of invading not long after signing it, would Vietnam instead now resemble Korea?

[pithblot]

Who really lost the Vietnam War?

Anotherday,

If you are talking about South Korea, then yes, I think it's a fair possibility that Vietnam would now resemble South Korea. The people could have been spared unspeakable horrors and South Vietnam was on the cusp of being democratic, free, prosperous and safe. But, the treachery of many in US politics (Democrats in the 94th Congress) scuttled that dream.

Five minutes watching PragerU is time well spent.

The truth about the Vietnam War

"Did the United States win or lose the Vietnam War? We are taught that it was a resounding loss for America, one that proves that intervening in the affairs of other nations is usually misguided. The truth is that our military won the war, but our politicians lost it. The Communists in North Vietnam actually signed a peace treaty, effectively surrendering. But the U.S. Congress didn't hold up its end of the bargain. In just five minutes, learn the truth about who really lost the Vietnam War."

[onetrack]

I flew SYD to Tan Son Nhut via DRW on the QF B707, on Sept 1, 1970 - travelled both ways again about April 1971, and then returned to SYD from Tan Son Nhut via DRW on Aug 12, 1971, as part of my AMF service.

I cannot recall the precise flight times, but I can recall all flights were done largely during daylight hours. I seem to recall a very early departure time from SYD, a stop in Darwin for refuelling and then a direct flight to Tan Son Nhut.
Return trip was similar route and I think we left Tan Son Nhut mid-morning for an arrival around midnight in SYD, after another quick stop in DRW.
I'm sorry I can't be more specific on the timings, I never kept any diary, although I have kept all the correspondence I sent from SVN (which my mother initially kept), and there's a slight chance I may be able to find in that correspondence, some flight timing mentioned.
However, it's only a slight chance, as I've always lived in PER (apart from my time in the AMF) and I had to stay overnight in SYD and catch the QF flight to PER when returning home. The same happened when going to SVN, I had to fly QF to SYD, then catch the QF B707 to SVN.

[Aussie Bob]

Thank you onetrack for keeping the thread on subject and thank you all for keeping this civil and informed. Two sides to every story, quite possibly neither side correct.

Onetrack, I don't suppose you have any piccies?

[onetrack]

Aussie Bob, I do have piccies of SVN and I do recall taking great "above-the-clouds" piccies from the window of the QF B707 - but I'm pretty sure I don't have any pics of the actual aircraft that could ID it.

I do recall having some pics on the ground at Tan Son Nhut, but I recall that they're of warplanes and other airlines aircraft.
Unfortunately, these pics are still on 35mm slides and buried away in a trunk in the garage, I'd have to go on a hunt to find them.

I did have about 130, 35mm slides from SVN scanned and converted to digital (on CD) by a friend about 12-13 yrs ago - but all those pics are scenes of SVN itself, Engineer work I was doing, mates, and equipment items such as vehicles, plant, choppers, and a couple of aircraft.

There are a substantial number of 35mm slides from the era that I have not viewed for many years, I must get them out and digitalise them.
I was just reading an article a few days ago about how most 35mm slides from 40 or 50 years ago are now seriously degraded, and how it's imperative to get professionals to digitise them, as the colours are badly affected by the dyes degrading, and it takes professional programs to correct the serious colour imbalances.

[megan]

No point in debating with people who hold the true secrets of the universe. Close to any other point of view

Southpole, hold no secrets, nor close to any point of view. Speak as a guy who participated, lost a brother, and saw the results of the other sides atrocities. I guess that counts me out as someone with a valid opinion.

If you have an association with a South Vietnamese, it needs to be close, because they can suffer retribution if the word gets out of their views, you will find it's a unified country in name only. The Southerners can recognise a Northerner from 500 paces, and hate them with a passion, for their atrocities both during and after the war. But they are a pragmatic lot, and get on with their lives the best they can under the Northern heel. The country is made up of 54 different ethnic groups, each with its own language, lifestyle, and cultural heritage, so naturally tensions can arise for any number of reasons.

Relations between Northerners and Southerners are generally civil, the increased contact due to the influx of Northerners into the South since the end of the War have given rise to some stereotypes about people from different regions:

Northerners tend to view themselves as more cultured and refined. Southerners consider themselves more dynamic. Northerners are more concerned about status and appearances. Southerners are more liberal with their money while Northerners are more thrifty. Northerners are more conservative and afraid of change, while Southerners are more dynamic. Southerners are more Westernized, while Northerners are more Communist influenced. Southerners are more direct while Northerners are more formal. Some Southerners say they have difficulty understanding Northerners due to the formalities. Northern Vietnamese (e.g. Hanoi) are more socially conservative, southern Vietnamese (e.g. Saigon) are socially liberal, open, and modernist. Central Vietnamese (e.g. Huế) are culturally and socially conservative and traditional. They are also tend to be more religious, usually Buddhist.

[Bill Frost]

I travelled as a scheduled replacement Army pilot and not in a unit. From memory left Sydney about 11.00 pm after confinement in Sydney barracks for 12 hours in Sep 68. Direct to Singapore as a 23yo on my first overseas trip and dressed in civilian clothing as Sin didn't support the war. Probably refuelled the 707 after we landed about 7.00am local while pax were driven to a local military base for breakfast. As a junior officer I visited the officers mess for a full English breakfast in an outdoor eating area replete with cane furniture and turbanned Indian waiters. Very tropical and my introduction to Empire. ( Sin still a colony then ) Reboarded about 9.00 am for the hour or so flight to Tan Son Nhut ( Saigon / Ho Chi Minh ) I do remember Captain pointing out Con Son Is as a former prison as we passed southern SVN border, explaining that our arrival would be a steep descent and then wishing us good luck.

I have no memory of the first 20 minutes after touchdown but the subsequent hour or so waiting in an aircraft revetment bay with 30-40 other Aust military are clearly etched. It seemed chaotic and the subsequent flight to Nui Dat on a C123 with a laconic US loadmaster standing on the open loading bay during t/o only reinforced this. We all sat on the floor mid cabin with a cargo strap around us. A C123 looks like a 2 engine Hercules. Nobody told me / I didn't notice it had JATO. It became very apparent on takeoff.

Return in Sep 69 was again in QF direct Saigon - Sydney. Landed in Sydney late at night with only family to greet us. Can't remember if QF provided free beer or if we paid for it.

[onetrack]

Bill - This be the C-123 beastie, of which you speak? Taken at Tan Son Nhut in Sept. 1970. I too, rode this dreadful, flying crate, from Tan Son Nhut to Nui Dat.
I believe they were fitted with J85-GE-17 turbojets, which apparently was designed to improve their STOL characteristics.

I wonder what happened to WM561? I guess, more than likely, it ended up as scrap in a North Vietnamese furnace.

[Bill Frost]

C 123 Providor1

That is the beast. I worked with a small team of them when they were flying herbicide spray runs over primary jungle in Phuoc Tuy province. I would overfly at 1500 looking for any sign of ground fire aimed at them while 4-5 aircraft line abreast flew at about 200 feet agl for about a ten mile run before reversing direction. Several times I had a 2 aircraft flight of F 100's or Phantoms overhead and available for an airstrike. Several Huey Cobra gunships were also added at times.

You could see enemy tracks through the foliage of primary jungle. After the spray killed the trees bamboo quickly colonised the area exposed to sun and effectively covered up any evidence of activity.

[Minimbah]

Memories

My memories are a bit vague, but I remember that in Sep 69 I flew on what we called the QANTAS Charter SYD/SIN/SGN. We were in uniform, but had to take a civilian shirt with us so that when we got off the aircraft in Singapore we did not look like soldiers We all had the same haircut, trousers and shoes and that lean look of fit 19 year olds. The civilian shirt was supposed to disguise the fact that we were military, but I don't think we fooled anyone!


Returned to Australia on the QANTAS Charter in Sep 70. Pretty sure we flew SGN/DAR/SYD.


Both the above flights were in daylight hours. There was always a certain amount of urgency at Tan Son Nhat to unload and reload the QANTAS Charter so that it spent as little time as possible on the ground.


Sorry, I don't have any pics of the QANTAS aircraft. Just a Pan AM one which I travelled on for R&R.


I went back a few years ago. Good comments by megan.

[Pakehaboy]

Megan... Just a side note,and nothing to spout about.I flew for VAC for nearly 3 years,spent many hours with many of the Vietnamese pilots of the old regime who now fly for VAC... They never called it the "Vietnam war", they always referred to it as the " American War"

[CaptainMidnight]

Great article here:

Flight Survey Operations in Vietnam

[megan]

they always referred to it as the " American War"

They always get top billing the buggers, what about OZ, NZ, Thai, Taiwan, Phillipines and Sth. Korea.

Nice to see you back Pakeha, we exchanged a few PM under our old identities. Paid a trip in April last year, to be quite royally wined and dined by VN aviation identities in Hanoi and Vung Tau. Guess your VN cockpit comrades were high in the military rankings as well. Back in the US?

onetrack, after Vietnam your C-123 went to the South Korean Air Force.

A morning at Ben Tre. Parked along the runway edge when a landing C-123 didn't get reverse on one engine while landing on dew dampened PSP. Guess which engine.

[Pakehaboy]

Gidday Megan,
Actually I flew with the kids on the bus,the High ranking VN comrades were all on the 777,some very interesting and enlightening conversations with them.Seeing some of them show up at Long tan for ANZAC day was always nice to see,very respectful .Always got a kick, when taxing out of Danang,stopping the A/C on the taxi way,and taking photos of their Migs parked in the hangers,they would wave their arms in protest.Only met once by a VN suit an told not to do it again....I always did...

[Hempy]

I'm happy to debate anyone who suggests that we 'lost' the war in Vietnam.

People tend to forget the tensions of the era, and the 'Communist vs Democracy' ideological debate that was happening at the time.

The first cab off the rank was Korea. That ended in a draw (which was essentially a victory. It halted the move south).

Then came Konfrontasi. Without intervention that would have seen Communism on our doorstep.

Then came Vietnam. If it had been accomplished without a whimper, how would south-east asia look today? Whilst the Communists might have eventually taken their place in Vietnam, the war there certainly stopped the movement in its tracks.

The war in Vietnam served its purpose. It stopped the spread of totalitarian Communism in Asia.

[onetrack]

The Vietnam War was lost by the West because it was controlled entirely by politicians, not by competent high-ranking military personnel.

It was lost because the most basic tenet of War was not carried out - that of fighting for, gaining control of, and holding ground, once that ground was won.

In Vietnam, no ground areas were ever captured and securely held - thus the NVA and VC were largely free to move around at will. Stopping enemy movement within your held territory is crucial to winning a war.

The Vietnam War was lost because America supported a totally corrupt, base, ruthless and decadent leadership group in the South. These people didn't even have the support of the largest majority of the South Vietnamese.

America failed to address one of the major divisive features in the South - the internal hatreds and battles between the Catholics and the Buddhists.
If this had been properly addressed, the South would not have produced so many guerrillas willing to support the North.

As far as "losing militarily" goes, I have this point of fact buoying me for the Australian efforts in Phuoc Tuy province.
Almost adjoining the Australians Nui Dat base was the NVA D445 Battalion. The Australians doggedly pursued D445 and made their life pure misery.

An NVA Battalion in 1965 had a full-strength complement of 555 men. I knew we had reduced the numbers in D445 substantially - but I did not know how much we had done that, until I read an interview with a former NVA Colonel in the 1990's.

In that article, the Colonel stated that the Australians were such ferocious and competent fighters, that D445 Battalion had been reduced to a complement of just 3 men, by 1971.
That speaks volumes for me, and shows how close we actually came to winning the Vietnam War.

It was the politicians who failed to ensure that the war gains made, were capitalised on, and not thrown away, that led to the West's loss in Vietnam.