1,500 or 2,000ft?

[Squawk7700]

how do you know what altitude everyone is at? (Ask them, is the obvious answer)

So you're gonna ask every aircraft for their altitude? I've never heard that before.

[maverick22]

I think you will find that most aircraft will delay the takeoff roll until aircraft joining the circuit on crosswind have crossed the runway centreline. Im not going to knowingly blast off towards traffic that I can see coming. Same goes for an aircraft joining downwind.

[Lead Balloon]

Exactly. And sometimes inbound traffic will, on hearing a taxi broadcast, decide to remain a few miles clear until the departing traffic has done so.

[Godot64]

I still generally overfly at 2000' and let down dead side if I'm not familiar with the aerodrome. I got trained that way, it often still works for me, and a lot of pilots still seem to do it as a matter of course. Easy enough to fly a different approach if the circumstances and traffic require, though.

[andrewr]

Not trying to be offensive, no one, but how much time have you actually spent flying in and out of non-controlled aerodromes?

My experience may be atypical, but I have:

Typical or atypical, your experience isn't universal. If there is no other traffic it doesn't matter what you do but there are uncontrolled airfields with significant traffic i.e. less than 3 aircraft in the circuit is a quiet time.

- never joined crosswind when a high performance aircraft happened to be taking off at the same time

Not taking off, but I have had a close encounter with a twin practising an asymmetric go around when I was joining crosswind. They were too busy with the go around to do a radio call after turning base.

- never *arrived* at a height greater than 1,500' above the aerodrome (unless my TOPD and descent calculations and management have been inaccurate and poor ... )

I now routinely arrive at 2000 AGL if overflying, because:
1) I don't trust the students (or others) in the circuit to always maintain 1000 AGL and,
2) We will apparently now have high performance aircraft doing 1500' circuits because they were having trouble fitting in with the 1000' traffic

- never joined downwind or dead side when an aircraft happened to be departing overhead.

On one occasion as I was approaching the airport there were 2 aircraft on downwind, one on base, one climbing overhead for departure and 2 descending on the dead side. It is routine here to have multiple aircraft inbound/descending on the dead side and/or climbing for an overhead departure.

There's lots and lots of nothing going on out there at non-controlled aerodromes, punctuated by the occasional flurry of entirely mundane and easily manageable activity.

At many or most non controlled airfields, yes. But not all.

[Lead Balloon]

So how often have you (Godot64) encountered aircraft doing a circuit at 1,500'?

How do you manage to descend 1,000' between the point overhead and joining mid field crosswind or downwind, and remain within cooee of the runway? Speedbrakes?

[andrewr]

And sometimes inbound traffic will, on hearing a taxi broadcast, decide to remain a few miles clear until the departing traffic has done so.

That seems pretty extreme. It's not too hard to separate yourself from someone taking off - if nothing else, you know exactly where they are when they make the broadcast.

[andrewr]

So how often have you encountered aircraft doing a circuit at 1,500'?

How do you manage to descend 1,000' between the point overhead and joining mid field crosswind or downwind, and remain within cooee of the runway? Speedbrakes?

Only once or twice in the past, but we have been warned that it will be happening more often now.

The aircraft I fly has plenty of drag so descending is not an issue. I guess for more slippery aircraft they need to plan a wider turn. Although you can probably start descending below 2000' AGL safely once you are inside the normal circuit area rather than waiting until directly overhead - 1500' circuits are presumably also wider.

Or maybe a 45 degree join really is better.

[Lead Balloon]

3 or more aircraft in the circuit, Andrew? Sounds scary.

The busiest non-controlled aerodrome I've been to in Australia is Temora on Warbirds Downunda days - the slot for arrivals before the Romeo gets a bit busy, and the stampede of departures when the Romeo ends is very entertaining.

The Bicentennial Air Race was also fun, with departures every 30 seconds and lots of aircraft with approximately the same performance converging on the same spot at the other end.

Not enough enough fingers to count the aircraft on finals, base, downwind and reported inbound. Nobody's doing 2,000' overflies or fretting about high performance aircraft or overhead departures.

When you mix it in higher traffic densities in the circuit, seeing other aircraft in close proximity is not such a big deal. It's just Bankstown or Jandakot in their heyday, without ATC.

What's "extreme" seems to be something in the eye of the beholder. If someone chooses to stay away from the circuit while someone else departs, I'd call that "their decision" with no greater safety risk than going through the joining procedure while the other aircraft is lining up and departing.

[Godot64]

Originally Posted by Lead Balloon

So how often have you (Godot64) encountered aircraft doing a circuit at 1,500'?

How do you manage to descend 1,000' between the point overhead and joining mid field crosswind or downwind, and remain within cooee of the runway? Speedbrakes?

I've not often encountered aircraft at 1500' in the circuit, but often enough for proof of concept. And descent dead side before the turn onto crosswind has rarely proven to be a challenge in the distinctly unslippery aircraft I mostly fly!

I don't slavishly follow the 2000' overfly, but was responding to the OP who said he'd never heard of anyone doing it. I do, and quite often, because it works for me. YMMV.

[andrewr]

3 or more aircraft in the circuit, Andrew? Sounds scary.

Mock if you like, I was just pointing out that your comments:

how much time have you actually spent flying in and out of non-controlled aerodromes?

lots and lots of nothing going on out there at non-controlled aerodromes, punctuated by the occasional flurry of entirely mundane and easily manageable activity.

doesn't apply to all locations.

I did say 3 was quiet - that's a number that is pretty easily manageable. 5+ starts to get difficult. 3 or 4 inbound from different directions with ETAs within a minute or 2 also gets interesting - not least because the radio starts to get congested when they all to work out where the other aircraft are.

It wasn't me that decided that the high performance aircraft would do 1500' circuits. I just try to keep clear. If you want to arrive at 1500' don't let me stop you - it's your decision.

[Lead Balloon]

Understood. And my apologies if I came across as mocking.

I'd only make one last point: Nobody's decided that high performance aircraft will do 1,500' circuits. It's just a CAAP....

[R755]

As for overflying and then killing 1,000 feet on the dead side...
I prefer a tight spiral with a high angle of attack to control speed and a high rate of direction change per second. This means that I get to scan 360 degrees in only a few seconds. No traffic can sneek up, unseen!

[Lead Balloon]

I'd probably go for the initial and pitch, with a loop if necessary to confirm the location of other traffic. Between my loop and your tight spiral, R755, we should have all circuit risks covered.

[maverick22]

I'd only make one last point: Nobody's decided that high performance aircraft will do 1,500' circuits. It's just a CAAP....

I'm not sure why you are so sceptical about this. Every high performance aircraft I come across will fly the circuit at 1500' AGL. I'm not sure what part of the country you fly in, but in my neck of the woods you get anything from kingairs to 737s in the circuit, and they are at 1500 AGL.

On a side note, if there is a high performance aircraft in the circuit, you probably wouldn't being over flying the field anyway, because: a) they wouldn't want an aircraft overflying them only 500' above as this may cause a TCAS advisory and b) there's no need to overfly as you will know what the duty runway is based on the aircraft already in the circuit so you can just join behind the other aircraft

[Lead Balloon]

I'm not sure why you are so sceptical about this.

I'm not being sceptical about anything.

I'm merely pointing out: (a) that the CAAP is not the rule and (b) I've never joined above 1,500' AGL unless I've stuffed up and (c) it's never caused a problem for a 'high performance aircraft'.

Every high performance aircraft I come across will fly the circuit at 1500' AGL. I'm not sure what part of the country you fly in, but in my neck of the woods you get anything from kingairs to 737s in the circuit, and they are at 1500 AGL.

We do, indeed, fly in different necks of the woods.

In my neck the pilots of 'high performance aircraft' usually do straight ins or base joins. Continuous descents. Professionals being professionals.

On a side note, if there is a high performance aircraft in the circuit, you probably wouldn't being over flying the field anyway, because: a) they wouldn't want an aircraft overflying them only 500' above as this may cause a TCAS advisory ...

Whattha?

So now the 2,000' in the CAAP isn't enough? Should it be 3,000'?

And what "they wouldn't want" determines my overfly altitude? Are "they" in charge?

We are clearly in different necks of the woods, if not different planes of consciousness.

... and b) there's no need to overfly as you will know what the duty runway is based on the aircraft already in the circuit so you can just join behind the other aircraft.

That depends on my judgment. The pilot of the 'high performance aircraft' may be able to land on a runway in wind conditions that may not be suitable for the aircraft I'm flying, or with which I may not be comfortable.

But rest assured: Choosing a different runway hasn't resulted in my being head to head with a 'high performance aircraft' on approach.

[maverick22]

So now the 2,000' in the CAAP isn't enough? Should it be 3,000'?

All I'm trying to do is provide some insight into what happens in the real world. Not trying to come across as some form of sky God. We fly the circuit at 1500'. It's in our ops manual. All I'm trying to say that if you were overflying us only 500' above, you would potentially cause a resolution advisory on our TCAS, meaning we would need to take evasive action, and fill out paper work afterwards. We don't own the sky, but this is a scenario we would avoid. Basically what I'm trying to say is good communication and airmanship in the CTAF is a good thing. Fly the circuit however you like, as long as it's legal and safe

[Lead Balloon]

Basically what I'm trying to say is good communication and airmanship in the CTAF is a good thing. Fly the circuit however you like, as long as it's legal and safe.

Basically what I'm trying to say is good communication and airmanship in the CTAF is a good thing. Fly the circuit however you like, as long as it's legal and safe.