Watch out for AMSA advice – you could die!
Perhaps imagine this situation? A mate of mine has flown his GA aircraft towards a popular spot in the Flinders Ranges. Something goes wrong and his engine fails. So he makes the appropriate radio calls but there's no response from anyone. He carries amongst his other survival tools, a modern 406 MHz PLB which is registered with AMSA. So before he carries out an emergency landing, he activates his PLB. What if I was the first person that would be called by AMSA if the device was activated and he couldn't be contacted?
Wouldn't that solve the issue for you, Dick?
Wouldn't that solve the issue for you, Dick?
Thread Starter
Gerry. Yes I agree. If no calls are answered I would have to rely on my ELT. But as I have explained -extensive testing I have done over a number of decades in some very remote places in this world show that 9 out of 10 times a pilot will get an immediate answer by calling on 121.5 .
If more GA aircraft monitor the frequency it will be even more likely to get a reply.
And as mentioned ATC can contact a VFR pilot they may have inadvertently flown into controlled airspace by requesting an IFR aircraft that is already on an ATC frequency to call on the 121.5 guard frequency. That's the reason the FAA has this 121.5 requirement for VFR aircraft.
If more GA aircraft monitor the frequency it will be even more likely to get a reply.
And as mentioned ATC can contact a VFR pilot they may have inadvertently flown into controlled airspace by requesting an IFR aircraft that is already on an ATC frequency to call on the 121.5 guard frequency. That's the reason the FAA has this 121.5 requirement for VFR aircraft.
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And as mentioned ATC can contact a VFR pilot they may have inadvertently flown into controlled airspace by requesting an IFR aircraft that is already on an ATC frequency to call on the 121.5 guard frequency. That's the reason the FAA has this 121.5 requirement for
But you propose to have ATC calling some passing airliner, the airliner responding, ATC passing the message to them, airliner responding, airliner calling the VFR aircraft on 121.5, VFR aircraft responding, airliner passing on message, VFR aircraft responding, and then the airliner going back to the original frequency and letting ATC know the message has been passed on? Who cares if that's what they do in good ol' USA, that doesn't sound overly efficient. A lot of wasteful radio transmissions there.
Originally Posted by Dick Smith
That's the reason the FAA has this 121.5 requirement for VFR aircraft.
When I was 'in the business' we did not even monitor 121.5, let alone transmit on it.....
We had no capacity to do so - except on one very rare occasion in Derby during a "Kangaroo '83" military exercise when we were 'loaned' a portable "Bayside" VHF transceiver for the purposes of the exercise.
(And we actually used it to contact an aircraft which had otherwise 'nil contact'.)
I don't think that there has been any 'change' since......
Cheers
We had no capacity to do so - except on one very rare occasion in Derby during a "Kangaroo '83" military exercise when we were 'loaned' a portable "Bayside" VHF transceiver for the purposes of the exercise.
(And we actually used it to contact an aircraft which had otherwise 'nil contact'.)
I don't think that there has been any 'change' since......
Cheers
Thread Starter
No Wishi. In the US the airline simply makes an announcement "VFR aircraft overhead yyyyyy at 3500' if copying ,request call LAX Centre on XXX.XX."
Yes. The FAA has ground outlets at some locations on 121.5 but can and does use higher flying aircraft ( or intercept fighter) when an aircraft being called is not within coverage of a ground station. In Australia with our lower traffic densities we can save the cost of 121.5 ground stations by using existing aircraft radios.
In Aus I sometimes hear ATC calling a VFR aircraft on the map marked area frequency for different reasons. Often communication is not established. Probably because the pilot , after making 7 or 8 en route frequency changes, mis dialed the 9 th freq ! In the US just leave the radio on 121.5 if not flying in the approach or departure area of a marked CTAF.
Hope you are not looking for a way of making sure the simple FAA system can't work in Australia.
Yes. The FAA has ground outlets at some locations on 121.5 but can and does use higher flying aircraft ( or intercept fighter) when an aircraft being called is not within coverage of a ground station. In Australia with our lower traffic densities we can save the cost of 121.5 ground stations by using existing aircraft radios.
In Aus I sometimes hear ATC calling a VFR aircraft on the map marked area frequency for different reasons. Often communication is not established. Probably because the pilot , after making 7 or 8 en route frequency changes, mis dialed the 9 th freq ! In the US just leave the radio on 121.5 if not flying in the approach or departure area of a marked CTAF.
Hope you are not looking for a way of making sure the simple FAA system can't work in Australia.
Last edited by Dick Smith; 17th Apr 2016 at 06:07.
Originally Posted by Dick Smith
when an aircraft being called is not within coverage of a ground station.
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With ADSB-OUT, if you squawked 7700 outside of the range of an ADSB ground station, does anything higher with ADSB-IN relay that? Does a advanced ADSB-IN installation display anything? If not, why not?
Last edited by AbsoluteFokker; 17th Apr 2016 at 07:33.
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Slightly off topic, but some information worth sharing in this context.
On the g430/530 If you hold down the frequency flip button for a few seconds it will dial up 121.5
On the g650/750 (like the flash one in the picture) you can either push the volume knob in and hold it in for a few seconds, or if you have the remote flip button fitted, you can hold that down for a few seconds to dial up 121.5 .
On the g430/530 If you hold down the frequency flip button for a few seconds it will dial up 121.5
On the g650/750 (like the flash one in the picture) you can either push the volume knob in and hold it in for a few seconds, or if you have the remote flip button fitted, you can hold that down for a few seconds to dial up 121.5 .
Thread Starter
Nibbles I would only use 121.5 for an emergency purposes. It's a great one to monitor to assist others especially if an ELT is activated.
As I am old school I monitor Sydney Radar when in the lane with my number one radio but I don't make announcements on this frequency when it is ganged with Sydney departures. Don't want to be partially responsible for a serious airline incident or accident.
As I am old school I monitor Sydney Radar when in the lane with my number one radio but I don't make announcements on this frequency when it is ganged with Sydney departures. Don't want to be partially responsible for a serious airline incident or accident.
Re "In Australia with our lower traffic densities we can save the cost of 121.5 ground stations by using existing aircraft radios."
Agreed - it has always been this way and reasonably effective...
Cheers
Agreed - it has always been this way and reasonably effective...
Cheers
I can't believe this debate is still going.
Years ago, Boyd Munro did an excellent job of raising this issue. He then published a paper on monitoring 121.5. It was on the remnants of the air safety foundation for a long time, but the thread he started on pprune is still here:
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...australia.html
As for the guys that think ATC will hear you on area frequency or that ADS-B will have your position, all I can say is I want some of whatever you are on.
When you've declared an emergency on area frequency in the circuit at Bourke you can come back and talk to me.
Anytime you have a second radio doing nothing, it should be on 121.5. What earthly reason other than laziness would you have for not doing this?
Years ago, Boyd Munro did an excellent job of raising this issue. He then published a paper on monitoring 121.5. It was on the remnants of the air safety foundation for a long time, but the thread he started on pprune is still here:
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...australia.html
As for the guys that think ATC will hear you on area frequency or that ADS-B will have your position, all I can say is I want some of whatever you are on.
When you've declared an emergency on area frequency in the circuit at Bourke you can come back and talk to me.
Anytime you have a second radio doing nothing, it should be on 121.5. What earthly reason other than laziness would you have for not doing this?
When you've declared an emergency on area frequency in the circuit at Bourke you can come back and talk to me.
Anytime you have a second radio doing nothing, it should be on 121.5.
Walk me through the disadvantages of activating an ELT or PLB and transmitting a MAYDAY on Area.
What earthly reason other than laziness would you have for not being competent to activate an ELT or PLB in the air?
I think lots of people do not understand that an activated 406 ELT or PLB transmits on 121.5, and an activated 406 ELT or PLB with an inbuilt GPS will transmit accurate position information directly to people whose job it is to arrange help.
Thread Starter
But the ELT doesn't say what's wrong. A quick call on 121.5 is very likely to get an instant response almost everywhere.
" Kilo Tango Kilo ,engine failure- heading for the northern end of Lake Torrens, two on board "
" Kilo Tango Kilo ,engine failure- heading for the northern end of Lake Torrens, two on board "
Yep, that's fine but as stated before, it could take a week to search the northern end of a salt lake or "10 miles south of Upper Buckner West" the beacon, when activated, WILL get help overhead.
If you're transmitting a MAYDAY, Dick, it doesn't matter what's wrong. By definition, you consider the circumstances to be an emergency.
If you are in circumstances in which you consider a MAYDAY broadcast is justified, you are in circumstances in which activation of your ELT or PLB is justified.
I say again: Everyone who's in range to receive a MAYDAY on 121.5 is in range to receive a MAYDAY on Area.
I ask again: Walk me through the disadvantages of activating an ELT or PLB and transmitting a MAYDAY on Area.
If you are in circumstances in which you consider a MAYDAY broadcast is justified, you are in circumstances in which activation of your ELT or PLB is justified.
I say again: Everyone who's in range to receive a MAYDAY on 121.5 is in range to receive a MAYDAY on Area.
I ask again: Walk me through the disadvantages of activating an ELT or PLB and transmitting a MAYDAY on Area.
Yep, that's fine but as stated before, it could take a week to search the northern end of a salt lake
But, the point is that if something goes wrong you want everything going for you. We just installed a 406 MHz ELT despite it no longer being required. Plus I carry a PLB plus I would transmit on Area & 121.5 and these days the humble mobile phone might be best.
The point of this and the previous Boyd Munro thread is to highlight the sense of LISTENING (not talking) on 121.5. Over the years I've responded to a couple of requests on 121.5. Usually ATC looking for someone (an airline on at least one occasion) who is in one of our many VHF blackspots.
Australia is not very good at encouraging listening watch on 121.5 and we are one of the few countries where it is not monitored by ATC. But, somewhere remote, being picked up by an overhead airline might be more reliable than ATC.
This thread was initiated by Dick Smith highlighting the craziness of AMSA focusing on the area frequency for emergency response.
"I ask again: Walk me through the disadvantages of activating an ELT or PLB and transmitting a MAYDAY on Area."
Goodness, Lead Balloon.. Please consider the RPT aluminium confetti that may result from such an irresponsible action!
My thought for those hiring GA aircraft and going on remote trips is simply this: Don't trust that the aircraft ELT actually works. So perhaps carry your own 406 MHz PLB(s) registered to AMSA? They are very cheap, these days.
Goodness, Lead Balloon.. Please consider the RPT aluminium confetti that may result from such an irresponsible action!
My thought for those hiring GA aircraft and going on remote trips is simply this: Don't trust that the aircraft ELT actually works. So perhaps carry your own 406 MHz PLB(s) registered to AMSA? They are very cheap, these days.