VFR Into IMC Training?
I did a UK PPL then an OZ CPL/IR and did more IMC flying in UK! Many lessons were VFR on top as had to climb up through low winter stratus before training commenced. Also carby heat control was used regularly in UK along with deicing the wing before morning winter flights. All good experience, even getting a QDM to return to the field. Never have asked for a QDM in Oz and doubt many here even know what it is?
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I certainly think the training for PPL should be improved. We don't train people for engine failures by saying "if you run out of fuel, you will die". Why tell people essentially the same thing about IMC?
We should be training IMC as an emergency procedure for a VFR pilot, with a specific set of actions rather than just flying around randomly with the hood on following instructions. (Who's idea was a 360 degree turn under the hood anyway? Not a brilliant idea to train people to turn 360 degrees if they enter IMC...)
A specific emergency procedure might be something like:
1) Transition to instruments and climb (straight ahead or away from obstacles) if below LSALT - which requires some awareness of your location relative to terrain
2) Make a 180 degree turn.
3) Call to ATC for assistance
4) Follow ATC vectors etc
3 & 4 are obviously simulated by the instructor for training.
That way a PPL who enters IMC will have a plan, instead of panicking with the thought that they are about to die.
We should be training IMC as an emergency procedure for a VFR pilot, with a specific set of actions rather than just flying around randomly with the hood on following instructions. (Who's idea was a 360 degree turn under the hood anyway? Not a brilliant idea to train people to turn 360 degrees if they enter IMC...)
A specific emergency procedure might be something like:
1) Transition to instruments and climb (straight ahead or away from obstacles) if below LSALT - which requires some awareness of your location relative to terrain
2) Make a 180 degree turn.
3) Call to ATC for assistance
4) Follow ATC vectors etc
3 & 4 are obviously simulated by the instructor for training.
That way a PPL who enters IMC will have a plan, instead of panicking with the thought that they are about to die.
In what way did my paraphrasing misrepresent what was stated Squawky? As you quoted the statement made was:
Full panel basic IF is not hard - its mostly mind over matter.
Let's meet behind the shelter shed after school. Thems fightin' words.
You are welcome to disagree with me but you can't say I am WRONG unless you can present DATA to support your position.
The basic issue with these continuing VFR into IMC accidents is poor decision making. I don't know how you fix that - unfortunately there is an element of Darwinian selection in that!
Some years ago I participated in a research project run out of a Sydney based uni, maybe UNSW, that involved putting pilots of various backgrounds and experience levels in a simulator and looking at how they responded to a range of weather senarios in order to try to get a handle on their decision making processes.
Unfortunately, I have never seen the outcomes, if any, from that research.
Interestingly, spending an hour or so looking through my log books this morning has not stimulated my memory of another incident like the one I described above. The most vivid memory is of the day I was I was flying a bloke to his funeral in NZ in a VFR C206. The weather was very marginal and I eventually found myself flying up a valley with a decreasing ceiling and the clouds on the hills either side of the valley. I said to my pax, "If I keep doing this I am going to end up like you", and with that I did a quick 180 and took him back to Palmerston North. Fortunately, he didn't offer any comment!
The undertakers were pissed, but my response was, if you wanted to be sure he got to the funeral your should have taken him by road or chartered an IFR aeroplane! Dr
My apologies if I have incorrectly interpreted your wording.
I certainly think the training for PPL should be improved. We don't train people for engine failures by saying "if you run out of fuel, you will die". Why tell people essentially the same thing about IMC?
We should be training IMC as an emergency procedure for a VFR pilot, with a specific set of actions rather than just flying around randomly with the hood on following instructions. (Who's idea was a 360 degree turn under the hood anyway? Not a brilliant idea to train people to turn 360 degrees if they enter IMC...)
A specific emergency procedure might be something like:
1) Transition to instruments and climb (straight ahead or away from obstacles) if below LSALT - which requires some awareness of your location relative to terrain
2) Make a 180 degree turn.
3) Call to ATC for assistance
4) Follow ATC vectors etc
3 & 4 are obviously simulated by the instructor for training.
That way a PPL who enters IMC will have a plan, instead of panicking with the thought that they are about to die.
We should be training IMC as an emergency procedure for a VFR pilot, with a specific set of actions rather than just flying around randomly with the hood on following instructions. (Who's idea was a 360 degree turn under the hood anyway? Not a brilliant idea to train people to turn 360 degrees if they enter IMC...)
A specific emergency procedure might be something like:
1) Transition to instruments and climb (straight ahead or away from obstacles) if below LSALT - which requires some awareness of your location relative to terrain
2) Make a 180 degree turn.
3) Call to ATC for assistance
4) Follow ATC vectors etc
3 & 4 are obviously simulated by the instructor for training.
That way a PPL who enters IMC will have a plan, instead of panicking with the thought that they are about to die.
Now go read some of those write-ups in the crash comic and see if you think there might have been a better outcome had the above been enacted!
Dr-You and I actually seem to be saying the same thing in respect to the cause of continuing VFR into IMC. You said:
and I said:
As to the rest, well we will just have to disagree about the benefits of minimal IF training at the PPL stage. Suffice to say in some circumstances it was better than none at all, as in your story. In other circumstances it is not enough, and that people are still losing their lives when entering IMC is evidence of that.
The basic issue with these continuing VFR into IMC accidents is poor decision making.
.... it was your decisions and therefore your decision making processes that led you out of trouble..... They are not intuitive to all but they are the sort of skills that can be taught, trained and practised. Its not a case of intellectualising the situation but being taught and then developing the Non-Technical Skills that can help get you out of a situation like you found yourself in.
I'm positive that the old syllabus required 2 hours IF for a restricted PPL and an additional 3 hours for an unrestricted PPL for a total of 5 hours. The current syllabus seems to only require 2 hours.
It would seem to me that no more than a return to that syllabus would achieve what most people here think is a good thing.
Why do you think CASA changed it?
It would seem to me that no more than a return to that syllabus would achieve what most people here think is a good thing.
Why do you think CASA changed it?
I'm positive that the old syllabus required 2 hours IF for a restricted PPL and an additional 3 hours for an unrestricted PPL for a total of 5 hours.
I looked up my log book - I had 3 h 10 min IF when I fronted the infamous John Bally for my RPPL test, and did another 2 hr as Nav V: IF for my UPPL.
I have no idea what the current requirement is!
5 hrs is actually quite a lot of IF training - I only did about 30 min of basic refresher before starting my CIR.
Why do you think CASA changed it?
Dr
What do the United States do in their syllabus for this issue? (although I note it was mentioned above that their crash rate is high)
Maybe including a NVFR rating in the PPL syllabus (like in the USA) would help with flight planning for bad weather and the usage of instruments?
I wrote to JMc about this years ago but I didn't get an outcome due to the changing of the guard at the time.
Current requirement is 2 hours IF.
Maybe including a NVFR rating in the PPL syllabus (like in the USA) would help with flight planning for bad weather and the usage of instruments?
I wrote to JMc about this years ago but I didn't get an outcome due to the changing of the guard at the time.
Current requirement is 2 hours IF.
Thread Starter
And if there is to be more IFR training then it has to be in real IFR, not simulated with those bloody foggles and not in a simulator! You need to experience the full blown somatogravitic(?) illusions.
I wonder if someone could design a course like "recovery from unusual attitudes" which is about (very) basic aerobatics. I did some of that with much joy until my instructor broke her leg.
Could it be titled "safe recovery from VFR into IMC?" and practiced in actual IMC conditions? I could sign up for that.
The counter argument is "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" but I fear that we are there already given the number of VFR into IMC accidents.
I wonder if someone could design a course like "recovery from unusual attitudes" which is about (very) basic aerobatics. I did some of that with much joy until my instructor broke her leg.
Could it be titled "safe recovery from VFR into IMC?" and practiced in actual IMC conditions? I could sign up for that.
The counter argument is "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" but I fear that we are there already given the number of VFR into IMC accidents.
Thats an interesting point Squawky- How many of these events occur at night time? Off the top of my head I can't think of too many. Is it because of the extra IF training for NVFR (10 hours I think) or is it better decision making?
practiced in actual IMC conditions? I could sign up for that
I do a lot of currency work in a SIM. A lot of IFR are checklists, instrument scan, procedures and getting a picture of where the aeroplane actually is from the indications on instruments. The SIM is just as good as real flight for all of this.
You need the real world to deal with the feeling of being in cloud, dealing with turbulence and importantly icing.
There are a few mobs out there doing sessions for recovery from unusual attitudes. I'm I'm not mistaken Jabba and or the SAAA organized an operator to run some sessions for this around the Ausfly event. I'm not sure what the uptake was, however any knowledgable instructor could run you through this easily enough.
I said to my pax, "If I keep doing this I am going to end up like you", and with that I did a quick 180 and took him back to Palmerston North. Fortunately, he didn't offer any comment!
FTDK!
I wonder if someone could design a course like "recovery from unusual attitudes" which is about (very) basic aerobatics.
Also in the UK we were allowed to fly sailplanes into cloud so long as wearing a parachute (small chance of a midair or turbulence or icing) and radio. No AH, just T&S and vario and compass. Gave good experience in circling up under a Cu and getting a steady rate turn going and keep going in the cloud and then straightening up and coming out the side. Was the easiest way to get Height gain certificates. You did have to broadcast on the radio before entering cloud but only on the glider channel. Of course some nutters also went up in Cb's but not always with success. One sailplane got struck by positive lightening and all the carbon (mainly spar) exploded in flight. Hence the parachute! I also flew sailplanes in Oz but again no IMC flying allowed (or needed).
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Read the whole thread with great interest, and have a small axe to grind as well!
I did my CPL way back in 1985 starting the PPL training in early 1982, with the Flying School knowing that I wished to advance all the way to CPL, SCPL (as it was then.)
I was given what could be described as a bit of a 'hard time' by my Instructors whom I later discovered, had held a meeting just after I signed up with the School. The meeting was a general discussion along the lines of...' OK, how are we going to teach this bloke?"
I was given far more IF time than the then syllabus required. Also, back then in the 80's there was a requirement to hold a Class 4 Instrument rating, otherwise known as a Night VMC rating before you could take the CPL Flight test!
When it came to eventually completing the training for the MECIR rating it was the same. I was given a bit of a hard time. ie put under a bit more pressure than normal. I was lucky enough to have been able to do my initial MECIR rating on a shockingly ****ty winters day out of YPAD. About 95% of the test was flown in genuine IMC and the 2,000' winds that day were 45kt+
My very first IFR Charter, flown in the same A/C (a Seneca 1) was flown on a similar day about three weeks later!
I am now firmly convinced that the training I received saved my sorry arse more than once, given some of the things that happened to me in my PNG flying career!
*
Sorry to write a book, but my point is; Unless you have a CIR, Multi or single engine and have had some experience in real IMC conditions, think very carefully about any flight when the weather appears 'marginal.' Because it's always worse than you think!
* Thanks to two very talented Instructors; TK and PD
I did my CPL way back in 1985 starting the PPL training in early 1982, with the Flying School knowing that I wished to advance all the way to CPL, SCPL (as it was then.)
I was given what could be described as a bit of a 'hard time' by my Instructors whom I later discovered, had held a meeting just after I signed up with the School. The meeting was a general discussion along the lines of...' OK, how are we going to teach this bloke?"
I was given far more IF time than the then syllabus required. Also, back then in the 80's there was a requirement to hold a Class 4 Instrument rating, otherwise known as a Night VMC rating before you could take the CPL Flight test!
When it came to eventually completing the training for the MECIR rating it was the same. I was given a bit of a hard time. ie put under a bit more pressure than normal. I was lucky enough to have been able to do my initial MECIR rating on a shockingly ****ty winters day out of YPAD. About 95% of the test was flown in genuine IMC and the 2,000' winds that day were 45kt+
My very first IFR Charter, flown in the same A/C (a Seneca 1
) was flown on a similar day about three weeks later!I am now firmly convinced that the training I received saved my sorry arse more than once, given some of the things that happened to me in my PNG flying career!
* Sorry to write a book, but my point is; Unless you have a CIR, Multi or single engine and have had some experience in real IMC conditions, think very carefully about any flight when the weather appears 'marginal.' Because it's always worse than you think!
* Thanks to two very talented Instructors; TK and PD
Three of us in a Bonanza planned to fly VFR from YSCB to YKII on 22nd January 2016. The WX turned out lousy down south on the day, so we flew elsewhere. We had made accommodation bookings at Currie and had paid a deposit of $360. That was obviously lost. Disappointing? Of course. But no one in our crew complained about the loss as we are well aware of the WX vagaries, when flying VFR.
(King Island does not have a taxi service so transfers to and from the airport are made by the hoteliers and moteliers. Obviously, bookings are wise.)
I believe that if time and destination pressures were avoided for all aboard, then many VMC into IMC accidents would be avoided.
(King Island does not have a taxi service so transfers to and from the airport are made by the hoteliers and moteliers. Obviously, bookings are wise.)
I believe that if time and destination pressures were avoided for all aboard, then many VMC into IMC accidents would be avoided.
Last edited by gerry111; 4th Feb 2016 at 10:48.