Does anyone know where I can do a MMC course?

[vhxxxx]

Looking to do an MCC course by September under the new Part 61 rules. Is there any provider that is CASA approved to do this course as yet ??

[kingRB]

Let me google that for you

[drpixie]

Try Multicrew Airline Training Systems, I know one of the principles and I'd be speaking to him if I were in your shoes.

It's a substantial course - but I guess if you have need of the qualification, it will be worth it.

[vhxxxx]

Does anyone know where I can do an MCC course ?

Thanks, are Multi crew airline training systems CASA approved under Part 61? Where are they based ? There is a provider for MCC courses advertising starting dates in September all over Australia, but as yet they arent CASA approved as far as I am aware.

[vhxxxx]

Thanks click. You're really helpful.

[TOGA Flex]

MCC AUS

Will be initially BRIS ONLY, expect a cost of $5-7 K. Staff training & sim sorted just approval by CASA hangs in balance.

[601]

Their website specifically states they're Part 61 approved, and located in Brisbane. Would you like anything else?

Well at least the OP is learning how to ask questions in a MC environment.

[Arm out the window]

Good one, 601!

[Judd]

Quote: "It's a substantial course" Unquote


At close to $9000, it sure needs to be a substantial course. The MCC course is over two weeks which includes 28 hours in a fixed base 737 NG simulator; plus several classroom days of 737 technical lectures for those unfamiliar with the 737 systems, and a bit of human factors already covered in CPL/ATPL subjects. Hard luck if you have never flown a 737.


And all that time and expense just to learn how to communicate with a fellow crew member? Don't forget to add two weeks or more of accommodation and food costs for interstate clients, and it all adds up.

[vhxxxx]

Ive been in contact with MATS. Yes it is a very substaintial course and appears to be well worth it. MATS only recieved CASA approval just over 1 month ago. The only other operator with CASA approval to conduct MCC is in Moorabbin I believe.Whilst the statement from TOGA FLEX in regards to CASA approval for MCC AUS may be correct, MCC AUS do not have an approved simulator in which to conduct the courses, nor do they have an approved Part 142 operators licence. They are currently advertising MCC course dates commencing September. What year?

[LeadSled]

Folks,
All in all, another financial hurdle (and boondoggle) created by CASA crushing over-regulation.
I just wonder how so many of us survived over the years, without this expensive nonsense.
Tootle pip!!
PS: 28 hours in a fixed base 737NG should take you long way to a B737 type rating???

[Ollie Onion]

I did an MCC course when they were first introduced in the UK, it was a total waste of time. They taught you a generic wishy washy set of SOP's and technical info to enable a set of staged exercises in a fixed base sim. You will learn that one pilot says gear up and the other actions it, then when you join an airline they teach you all that stuff anyway! I couldn't understand why this stuff which you have to learn anyway within your airline training system needs to be paid for at the expense of the trainee pilot. As pointed out above, it doesn't even count towards a type rating

[LowTime]

All this despite CASA telling everyone and everything that Part 61 will not impact any further cost to the industry.

So we have one place in Australia who can now charge an absolute fortune on communication skills that are taught from day dot in any multi crew environment / operation as rightly pointed out by Ollie.

All this is for the fixed wing community. How does an MCC on an 737 help anyone who fly's multi crew helicopters here in Australia?

As far as I am aware (and I stand to be corrected on this) there is no rotary wing training provider that can offer MCC for helicopters.

I still see jobs advertised, wanting the ATPL licence.

Bit hard to apply when you have all the ticks in the box re the hours but the need for an MCC and a flight test which CASA themselves cannot grant, let alone a company C & T.

It appears to me that a clear path on how to issue Fixed & Rotary ATPL's is sadly lacking and has been ever since Part 61 was introduced. All this despite the industry clearly telling CASA that neither one was ready for this debacle..

I won't even comment on their revised fees and charges except to say "Outrageous!!"

Just my 2 cents worth!!

[Tee Emm]

Anecdotally, CASA (each FOI has a different opinion) require a minimum of four simulator sessions for the MCC course. How many hours in each session is up to the provider. If the MCC training provider decides to include more sessions than the supposed minimum and the client doesn't like that he can always go elsewhere. The problem is where can he go? At the moment there are apparently only two approved MCC course providers, both charge in the region of $9000 and thus there is no competition.

I understand most of the MCC Human Factors syllabus is already covered in the ATPL and CPL Human Factors theory subjects. Is it really necessary to repeat the same subjects in the MCC course.

One approved MCC operator with a 737 FTD requires seven 4 hour simulator sessions. That is almost half required of an initial type rating. It is hard to see why this number of sessions are needed to teach the practical side of MCC. Well, in reality they are not needed. But it makes money for the provider. Again, anecdotally, the first few classroom sessions are nothing to do with MCC theory at all. They are all about looking at wall posters of the simulator cockpit and learning off by heart the position of ancillary controls, instruments, knobs and radios. In other words everything needed to fly an IFR airliner.

That means once you get into the sim with another pilot to start your 28 hours of sim sessions you don't get time to stuff around looking for the standby rudder switches and TCAS switches in a 737, Dash Eight, or an A320 FMCG or whatever the sim represents , That is because before you start playing multi crew cooperation games in an expensive simulator and using non-normals in the Saab or Dash or 737 QRH, you need to know the names of everything first and where things are in the aircraft type QRH.

Why is this so? The answer is that all the hours simulator flying (14 as PF and 14 as PM) are supposed to teach you multi crew operation like how to read a checklist and tune navaids, learn to read a QRH, talk to the cabin crew etc. This despite all this being later taught by the airline that you eventually and hopefully join in the future. It is called re-inventing the wheel. I think CASA haven't really thought this through before foisting a $9000 impost on a CPL holder. On the other hand, maybe they have...

[roundsounds]

vhxxx, why do you need to complete an MCC course?

[roundsounds]

Tee Emm, I agree. Any ethical 142 operator will incorporate the MCC in their type rating courses, you simply cannot complete a type rating without learning how a two crew operation works.

[Mach E Avelli]

Further to agreeing that north of nine grand is outrageous if the simulator time does not count towards a Type Rating, it concerns me that the people flogging MCC training may have little real world airline experience themselves.
Holding a Grade One Instructor Rating with 20,000 hours teaching basic flying skills does not necessarily translate to what is needed here. Neither does a degree in psychology make someone automatically qualified to teach MCC.

What qualifications are required for people to run these costly courses?
What are the qualifications of the CASA people who 'approve' these courses?

Before signing up for any training, caveat emptor.

[roundsounds]

Originally Posted by Blue Goshawk

Interesting that VH - xxxx is "looking to do an MCC course". Previous postings as far back as 2003 show that VH - xxxx was a pilot in 89.

I'm thinking BG has hit the nail on the head with this thread.

[Captain Sherm]

The bulk of Australia's RPT pilots progressing to an ATPL will have their requirement for MCC training met by their participation in their CAR 217 training and checking organisations programmes which are required under either CAO 82.3 or 82.5 (low or high capacity RPT) to embed such training in accordance with CAAP SMS 3.

There is no need at all for airlines to require an ATPL before hiring. Of course they may ask for you to have the subjects but there is no reason the actual test cannot be done inside their CAR 217 system when needed, i.e as you approach command or cruise relief command.

I understand CASA has been working with all the major operators to check out their own examiners to conduct ATPL tests when needed and that programme is well underway. So maybe you'll see the wording on their pilot recruitment websites change?

As for those who doubt the need for such training at all......sigh

Sherm

[Capt Fathom]

Originally Posted by Blue Goshawk
Interesting that VH - xxxx is "looking to do an MCC course". Previous postings as far back as 2003 show that VH - xxxx was a pilot in 89.

So we're thinking perhaps the aim of this thread is to advertise