Cloud flying down under?

[mary meagher]

I say, chaps, a New Zealand pilot on the private flying forum has been shocked and surprised to learn that in the UK we are allowed to fly in cloud in uncontrolled airspace.

Certainly gliders in the UK are permitted to fly in uncontrolled airspace provided you wear a parachute, and have suitable instruments. These days Flarm is a good idea. We also have the custom of announcing on a gliding frequency that you are entering cloud, giving location, altitude, and intentions.

What are the rules down under? I thought NZ and Oz were glider friendly places? Or don't you have clouds?

[Aussie Bob]

Over here in Australia, we do things a little bit differently. How silly of you to think otherwise. Our vastly different and superior legislation is designed for our cloudy and crowded skies. Entering into cloud under VFR while flying anything will invite mid airs, disorientation, mayhem and death. Totally illegal, can't be done, never happens, an offence of strict liability.

[le Pingouin]

I think you'll find it's a peculiarity particular to the UK and a few other countries.

[601]

Or don't you have clouds?

I often wonder why I had an Instrument Rating when one could fly for 6 months between rating renewals without ever entering a cloud.

[Sunfish]

In England I guess they mostly fly in clouds or not at all.

[89 steps to heaven]

I thought VFR was see and avoid. Hard to do when you are in cloud I guess.

[Ixixly]

89 steps to heaven, just the avoid part really, you'll almost certainly achieve the Seeing part when the whites of the other persons eyes are only a few metres away!

[4Greens]

OZ has night VFR, not known in the rest of the world.

[Wizofoz]

Oz would actually be a perfect place for cloud flying in gliders- isolated CUs with high bases, and PFDs available for a very low cost. It would be great if you didn't have to stop climbing at clouds base, and the chances of collision are, of course, miniscule.

[no_one]

USA and canada allow night vfr flight.

There are few areas where the Australian rules are more relaxed than other parts of the world....

[LeadSled]

USA and canada allow night vfr flight.

Not strictly true, they allow VFR, and do not differentiate whether the sun is up or down. All part of having a PPL and up. Last time I noticed, UK had a night rating and the rather useful IMC rating.

Only in Australia do we insist that such things as night or controlled airspace are somewhere special, and only suitably rated pilots need apply.

Indeed, in the early days of the dreaded NVFR, I was officially advise that my instrument rating did not count for NVFR, apparently I could only fly in IMC, not on a fine and clear night. Only in Australia.

Mind you, in those days, there was no shortage of Examiners of Airmen who rather disapproved of GA IFR as well, just stick to day VFR.

Having originally learned to fly in UK, as I have often said, I didn't know flying was so bloody difficult until I cam home. And little has changed in the subsequent 50+ years.

Tootle pip!!

[AerocatS2A]

Indeed, in the early days of the dreaded NVFR, I was officially advise that my instrument rating did not count for NVFR, apparently I could only fly in IMC, not on a fine and clear night. Only in Australia.

To play devils advocate briefly here, you didn't have to be IMC, only IFR, you are welcome to fly IFR on a cloudless moonlit night.

[LeadSled]

Aerocat,
It precluded me from flying a NVFR aeroplane NVFR.
IFR GA aircraft were very rare birds in those days.
We had a lovely 260C Comanche that was IFR anywhere else in the world, DCA would do no better than NVFR ---- at least they didn't makes us pull out our very nifty 180 channel VHF and fit an AWA Skyphone, but even that took some negotiating the "standards".
Tootle pip!!

[27/09]

4Greens: OZ has night VFR, not known in the rest of the world.

Care to explain some more. You can fly VFR at night in more places than just Oz.

[LeadSled]

You can fly VFR at night in more places than just Oz.

27/09
Your thinking is upside down (it is Australia).
Most elsewhere just has VFR, period.
Most elsewhere regards night time to be a natural and regularly occurring feature of life on earth, so such things as pilot's licenses and associated training automatically accommodate same.
It was never disallowed at night, so it didn't need to be allowed, despite fears of the end of civilization in Oz if it was added "as a privilege".
Like driver's licenses.
Most elsewhere do not differentiate between navigating at night versus the rest of the day. How to avoid Cumulus Granatis is part of normal training, not an add-on.
Just like "controlled airspace", ask a PPL anywhere else about the seriously big deal we make of it in OZ, all you would get is a "WTF, it's just airspace" look.
Tootle pip!!

[Arm out the window]

Just like "controlled airspace", ask a PPL anywhere else about the seriously big deal we make of it in OZ, all you would get is a "WTF, it's just airspace" look.

I would think that's because in those other places, they train in and around and are familiar with operating in CTA / CTR - unlike many of our Aussie PPLs from the bush who panic at the idea of going near controlled airspace. Not their fault, just unfamiliarity, and it needs to be trained for. I certainly don't get 'WTF, it's just airspace' on the first couple of trips in, it's more like 'WTF did they just say and WTF am I supposed to do or say now?!', accompanied by a look of startled fear.

[27/09]

Leadsled.

I think you miss understood my point. I have no argument with your interpretation of VFR whether it be night or day

The following excerpt from Wiki, Yes I know it's not to be considered the be all and end all for correctness.

Wikipedia: Night VFR, or night visual flight rules (NVFR), are the rules under which flight primarily by visual reference is done at night.

In many countries, VFR flight at night is not permitted, in which case night flying is by instrument flight rules (IFR) only which, in almost all countries, requires an instrument rating.

Exceptions include New Zealand, Canada, Germany, Finland, France, Belgium, Poland, South Africa, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and the United States.

My bolding.

My post was in response to this post:

OZ has night VFR, not known in the rest of the world.

which to me inferred that Oz was the only place that allowed VFR flight at night.

[Mr & Mrs Rocketboots]

Glider flight in IMC

In NZ, glider pilots are permitted to fly in IMC subject to the provisions of Part 104 (104.53) - http://www.caa.govt.nz/rules/Rule_Co...solidation.pdf

[LeadSled]

27/09,
I would suggest that Wikipedia is hardly an authoritative reference on matters aviation.
The fact remains, Australia has a very anal approach to VFR at night,( and many matters aviation) the history is not a glorious one.
Tootle pip!!

[601]

VFR at night

for which one has to have a NVFR Rating.