Cadet Pilot Programme.
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Cadet Pilot Programme.
Hi,
With Jetstar and Virgin Australia not running their cadet programme now, what are the other options open in Australia?
Any idea if/when the aforementioned airlines will resume their programme?
With Jetstar and Virgin Australia not running their cadet programme now, what are the other options open in Australia?
Any idea if/when the aforementioned airlines will resume their programme?
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Ummmm . . . probably the same as 1970 - 2005?
Get 500+ single eng, someone leaves at the place u work and the Boss lets you cover 2 days a week on the twin while "the main man" has 2 days off. 6 months later, Main Man moves on and you are Johnny on the spot. After a couple of years, you have 2,000TT and 500+ multi Twin Command and Airlines are starting to no longer use your paper Resume when they run out of toilet paper.
Sorry if I sound like an a$$hole but that is how it has been for many many years until recently.
Most of sub 30 year old current Airline Pilots do not realise just how tough it used to be. At least now in G.A. you will get the award, even a good chance of getting above award - completely unheard until 10 years or so ago.
I believe the Pilot recruitment surge of 2002 - 2010 in this country will not be repeated for a very, very long time. During that time, there were probably 2 drivers for every job instead of 4 or 5 as had been the norm for many decades.
This the way I see it, anyway.
Get 500+ single eng, someone leaves at the place u work and the Boss lets you cover 2 days a week on the twin while "the main man" has 2 days off. 6 months later, Main Man moves on and you are Johnny on the spot. After a couple of years, you have 2,000TT and 500+ multi Twin Command and Airlines are starting to no longer use your paper Resume when they run out of toilet paper.
Sorry if I sound like an a$$hole but that is how it has been for many many years until recently.
Most of sub 30 year old current Airline Pilots do not realise just how tough it used to be. At least now in G.A. you will get the award, even a good chance of getting above award - completely unheard until 10 years or so ago.
I believe the Pilot recruitment surge of 2002 - 2010 in this country will not be repeated for a very, very long time. During that time, there were probably 2 drivers for every job instead of 4 or 5 as had been the norm for many decades.
This the way I see it, anyway.
Nunc est bibendum
Ummmm . . . probably the same as 1970 - 2005?
Cadets are a viable source of recruits if the industry isn't able to supply enough of the right sort of people. Whether the industry can do that at the moment is somethong for another day.
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Keg (love all your contributions over the years BTW)
I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make. I personally have no real problem with Cadet Programs per say. As long as they are not designed to drive down Terms and Conditions. In the past such at the big Q, they were not designed that way. I believe they provided a worthwhile contribution in the 80's/90's for the said company.
My point was the original poster appears to me anyway, to be stressing out.
"Oh no, no one is offering a Cadet program anymore, how will I ever get a job as an Airline Pilot now?"
I was not having a go at Cadets (gees, that one has been done to death, surely?)
I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make. I personally have no real problem with Cadet Programs per say. As long as they are not designed to drive down Terms and Conditions. In the past such at the big Q, they were not designed that way. I believe they provided a worthwhile contribution in the 80's/90's for the said company.
My point was the original poster appears to me anyway, to be stressing out.
"Oh no, no one is offering a Cadet program anymore, how will I ever get a job as an Airline Pilot now?"
I was not having a go at Cadets (gees, that one has been done to death, surely?)
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Well to avoid a charmless attitude (
of which aviation has its overly fair share of 
) I suppose a helping hand would be appreciated if you know little of the industry. 
Not sure of your age or background or willingness to move etc but there are many pathways to join an airline.
There are the cadetships which you've alluded to; they will always be around and have there appropriate place. They offer a great professional type pathway with mentoring to create a company molded aviator. They stop and start depending on the current economic environment. They will restart again one day, depends on your timeline though. Highly competitive and they would expect an appropriate level of schooling, it also helps to know someone, but that's any profession.
There's the General Aviation route within Australia, I'm sure you've read up a bit about that however it broadly involves going to a flight training provider and being "trained up." Like all training, cadets included, it involves a bucket-load of cash which these days will only hopefully pay dividends once in the industry for about 10+ years depending on your trajectory. You will require a Commercial Pilots Licence (CPL) and preferably a Multi-Engined aircraft endorsement to enable you to fly under the Instrument Flight Rules (IFR.) Iideally you'd also study and pass all your Airline Pilot Licence subjects before you hit the road around Australia as it will be hard to study and work at the same time, usually multiple different jobs other than flying initially. The road is a hard slog with plenty of pitfalls. You WILL work for unscrupulous operators, encounter a lot of egos and people trying to do you over and whilst your mates are partying in your home town you will quite possibly fly certain aggressive undesirables, lacking people skills, that can also be quite offensive to the nostrils.
Not for everybody! 
There are way more opportunities overseas these days and I would encourage you to examine this pathway as the life experiences will be fantastic.
Unfortunately the music has stopped in Australian aviation and the growth has peaked, due to airlines having a seniority system you will have a very slow progression, of any sorts, for many years, I'd say decades they way this country operates.
That's just a glimpse of the Australian pathway through-out aviation here. Not coming from knowing anyone in Aviation when I started I wish there was a forum like this to help me out before I began. Although I'm extremely happy with how things have turned out, but only through extreme perseverance.
I'd encourage you to also ask questions on some of the other international forums here on PPRUNE to seek a global view and come to an opinion as to whether you will even start down this challenging pathway or not as it's not for everybody.
Hope that helps buddy
of which aviation has its overly fair share of ) I suppose a helping hand would be appreciated if you know little of the industry. Not sure of your age or background or willingness to move etc but there are many pathways to join an airline.There are the cadetships which you've alluded to; they will always be around and have there appropriate place. They offer a great professional type pathway with mentoring to create a company molded aviator. They stop and start depending on the current economic environment. They will restart again one day, depends on your timeline though. Highly competitive and they would expect an appropriate level of schooling, it also helps to know someone, but that's any profession.
There's the General Aviation route within Australia, I'm sure you've read up a bit about that however it broadly involves going to a flight training provider and being "trained up." Like all training, cadets included, it involves a bucket-load of cash which these days will only hopefully pay dividends once in the industry for about 10+ years depending on your trajectory. You will require a Commercial Pilots Licence (CPL) and preferably a Multi-Engined aircraft endorsement to enable you to fly under the Instrument Flight Rules (IFR.) Iideally you'd also study and pass all your Airline Pilot Licence subjects before you hit the road around Australia as it will be hard to study and work at the same time, usually multiple different jobs other than flying initially. The road is a hard slog with plenty of pitfalls. You WILL work for unscrupulous operators, encounter a lot of egos and people trying to do you over and whilst your mates are partying in your home town you will quite possibly fly certain aggressive undesirables, lacking people skills, that can also be quite offensive to the nostrils.
Not for everybody! There are way more opportunities overseas these days and I would encourage you to examine this pathway as the life experiences will be fantastic.
Unfortunately the music has stopped in Australian aviation and the growth has peaked, due to airlines having a seniority system you will have a very slow progression, of any sorts, for many years, I'd say decades they way this country operates.
That's just a glimpse of the Australian pathway through-out aviation here. Not coming from knowing anyone in Aviation when I started I wish there was a forum like this to help me out before I began. Although I'm extremely happy with how things have turned out, but only through extreme perseverance.
I'd encourage you to also ask questions on some of the other international forums here on PPRUNE to seek a global view and come to an opinion as to whether you will even start down this challenging pathway or not as it's not for everybody.
Hope that helps buddy
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Imran, this is my take on your alternative. You can sit on your arse and wait for a cadetship to come up, or you can be proactive and kick start your career by following this rough guide:
Get a job.
Save your money.
Start learning to fly when you have saved sufficient funds.
Study hard.
Keep working and saving (as above).
Continue your flying training.
Study hard.
Consider taking out a loan if you have established a credit rating and still want to fly.
Keep working and saving (as above).
Study hard.
Get your CPL (There's no such thing as a "frozen ATPL").
Go out and find yourself your first flying job - You may need to leave your home city or town.
Be prepared for knockbacks. Your mum and dad can't prepare you for this. They don't have the capability.
Study hard (this time for your CIR and ATPL subjects) - There's no such thing as a "frozen ATPL" Did I write that already?
Network, and use this to progress onto other jobs in GA. Gain EXPERIENCE. There's no substitute for EXPERIENCE.
Study hard.
Apply to the airlines. Don't bull**** in your resumé or CV. As a former airline recruiter, we are trained to smell bull****ters a mile away. Don't include "frozen ATPL" in your application. Did I write that already?
Work hard on your IF manual flying skills.
Work hard on your IF manual flying skills.
Present well for your airline interview. Leave your attitude and any chips you might be carrying on your shoulders at home with mum and dad.
Be forthright and confident in your interview. Don't bull****. Under no circumstances say "to be quite honest......." as an answer to an interview question. Did I write we can smell a bull****ter a mile away?
Be prepared to f*ckup in the sim ride. We all do. Any company worth it's salt will assess your trainability with some remedial training input (time permitting). Do the best you can. Listen to your instructor. He or she wants you to pass.
If you're lucky enough to beat the other 4 or more applicants for the job: Well done!
Study hard.
Listen to your training captain. He or she WANTS to get you through your training. It's a matter of strong professional pride for those that choose to take on a training role. You probably don't understand that yet, but your training captain will spend many hours of his or her OWN time making sure you have the tools needed to get you through the check to line and be a half-decent line pilot. He or she is prepared to give up time with the family, or just time off to ensure you're up to standard. Never forget this.
Show your gratitude to your training captain.
When you get on line, you need to have a multiple personality disorder to fly the right hand seat. This is not a bad thing. It builds character for future promotion. Learn to adapt. Your mum and dad can't prepare you for this.
Pay close attention to your line captains. They have a lot to offer in terms of personal/professional development. Choose all the good qualities and leadership styles of the captains you enjoy flying with. Disregard (but note) the poor leadership styles of those you dislike flying with. Do not emulate them. Put these experiences in your toolbox for when you eventually come up for a command.
Study hard.
Keep an open mind.
I hope this helps.
Get a job.
Save your money.
Start learning to fly when you have saved sufficient funds.
Study hard.
Keep working and saving (as above).
Continue your flying training.
Study hard.
Consider taking out a loan if you have established a credit rating and still want to fly.
Keep working and saving (as above).
Study hard.
Get your CPL (There's no such thing as a "frozen ATPL").
Go out and find yourself your first flying job - You may need to leave your home city or town.
Be prepared for knockbacks. Your mum and dad can't prepare you for this. They don't have the capability.
Study hard (this time for your CIR and ATPL subjects) - There's no such thing as a "frozen ATPL" Did I write that already?
Network, and use this to progress onto other jobs in GA. Gain EXPERIENCE. There's no substitute for EXPERIENCE.
Study hard.
Apply to the airlines. Don't bull**** in your resumé or CV. As a former airline recruiter, we are trained to smell bull****ters a mile away. Don't include "frozen ATPL" in your application. Did I write that already?
Work hard on your IF manual flying skills.
Work hard on your IF manual flying skills.
Present well for your airline interview. Leave your attitude and any chips you might be carrying on your shoulders at home with mum and dad.
Be forthright and confident in your interview. Don't bull****. Under no circumstances say "to be quite honest......." as an answer to an interview question. Did I write we can smell a bull****ter a mile away?
Be prepared to f*ckup in the sim ride. We all do. Any company worth it's salt will assess your trainability with some remedial training input (time permitting). Do the best you can. Listen to your instructor. He or she wants you to pass.
If you're lucky enough to beat the other 4 or more applicants for the job: Well done!
Study hard.
Listen to your training captain. He or she WANTS to get you through your training. It's a matter of strong professional pride for those that choose to take on a training role. You probably don't understand that yet, but your training captain will spend many hours of his or her OWN time making sure you have the tools needed to get you through the check to line and be a half-decent line pilot. He or she is prepared to give up time with the family, or just time off to ensure you're up to standard. Never forget this.
Show your gratitude to your training captain.
When you get on line, you need to have a multiple personality disorder to fly the right hand seat. This is not a bad thing. It builds character for future promotion. Learn to adapt. Your mum and dad can't prepare you for this.
Pay close attention to your line captains. They have a lot to offer in terms of personal/professional development. Choose all the good qualities and leadership styles of the captains you enjoy flying with. Disregard (but note) the poor leadership styles of those you dislike flying with. Do not emulate them. Put these experiences in your toolbox for when you eventually come up for a command.
Study hard.
Keep an open mind.
I hope this helps.
Imran
it is likely that JQ will recruit second officers in the not too distant future. These would be for the longer B787 international sectors such as Sydney or Melbourne to Hawaii and Japan. There are a few unsubstantiated rumours circulating of other possible destinations in future also. At the moment this role is being done by an additional FO or occasionally another captain as relief pilot.
The new JQ EBA just negotiated has the second officer position included.
Good luck
RM
it is likely that JQ will recruit second officers in the not too distant future. These would be for the longer B787 international sectors such as Sydney or Melbourne to Hawaii and Japan. There are a few unsubstantiated rumours circulating of other possible destinations in future also. At the moment this role is being done by an additional FO or occasionally another captain as relief pilot.
The new JQ EBA just negotiated has the second officer position included.
Good luck
RM
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A quick look at Imran's posting history would suggest all the GA path suggestions will fall on deaf ears.
Instagram selfies in a 210 at Ampilatwatja probably won't cut the mustard.
Instagram selfies in a 210 at Ampilatwatja probably won't cut the mustard.
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Hi Jarse,
I remember doing many sectors with you at QLink and was always impressed the way you were able to express you thoughts into the written word. I see with you last post you haven't lost any of that talent.
Cheers
teggun
I remember doing many sectors with you at QLink and was always impressed the way you were able to express you thoughts into the written word. I see with you last post you haven't lost any of that talent.
Cheers
teggun
The other "cadetship" available is the military option.
They seem to be advertising, suggesting they need more pilots.
They seem to be advertising, suggesting they need more pilots.
Last edited by chimbu warrior; 20th May 2015 at 22:07. Reason: spelling; don't wan't the police knocking on my door!
What Hugh Jarse said x1000!
And what ever you do, don't be a ******. You need to decide whether you are the type of person who can fly the line day after day, by the book and not "feel the need for speed". If showing off your skills to your fellow pilots makes you feel cool, don't be an airline pilot.
By all means be proud of your achievements, and revel in your ability to improve, but don't sit there thinking you are all that, it will come across a baseless arrogance. The guys and girls I respect the most are those with great gobs of humility, ability comes with time and will be respected without any advertising by you.
Welcome aboard!!
And what ever you do, don't be a ******. You need to decide whether you are the type of person who can fly the line day after day, by the book and not "feel the need for speed". If showing off your skills to your fellow pilots makes you feel cool, don't be an airline pilot.
By all means be proud of your achievements, and revel in your ability to improve, but don't sit there thinking you are all that, it will come across a baseless arrogance. The guys and girls I respect the most are those with great gobs of humility, ability comes with time and will be respected without any advertising by you.
Welcome aboard!!
Hugh Jarse, I can't say anything but
Remember a couple of QF cadets from many years ago being seconded off to a Darwin operator once completing Tamworth. A couple of Sydney boys reluctant and declined going to a outback hick town in the bush, QF career over.
Remember a couple of QF cadets from many years ago being seconded off to a Darwin operator once completing Tamworth. A couple of Sydney boys reluctant and declined going to a outback hick town in the bush, QF career over.
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Thanks for the kind words, all
A couple of things I'd add:
The industry is fickle. One day you're at the top, the next at the bottom. I've witnessed (and experienced both). When you're at the top, do not under any circumstances **** on those below you. The analogy "the arse you kick on the way up might be the one you have to kiss on the way down" was never more applicable to any other industry than ours.
The friendships you make will last a lifetime. So will the enemies.
Come EBA time, respect and support your negotiators. They do this for no remuneration and give up a lot of their own time to look after your interests (much like the training captains). We all have different wants and needs from an EBA. By all means, vote on the "what's in it for me" clauses, but a better vote is for "what's in it for the group as a whole". Don't sell your unborn children (as somebody wrote on another thread). Your unborn child may just turn out to be a bastard child down the track.
___________
The cadet thing is interesting. I've heard a few stories over the years of how things work out for them. The rules are the same. You have to have a fire in your belly if you want to succeed, even as a cadet. A long time ago I was approached by a couple of cadets whose careers had stalled at the end of training. I suggested they take a particular path, invest some $$ in themselves and get some experience in GA.
One did, and the other didn't. The one who did gained valuable command hours and life experience, and the other no longer is a pilot. Being a d!ckhead didn't help the other pilot
A couple of things I'd add:
The industry is fickle. One day you're at the top, the next at the bottom. I've witnessed (and experienced both). When you're at the top, do not under any circumstances **** on those below you. The analogy "the arse you kick on the way up might be the one you have to kiss on the way down" was never more applicable to any other industry than ours.
The friendships you make will last a lifetime. So will the enemies.
Come EBA time, respect and support your negotiators. They do this for no remuneration and give up a lot of their own time to look after your interests (much like the training captains). We all have different wants and needs from an EBA. By all means, vote on the "what's in it for me" clauses, but a better vote is for "what's in it for the group as a whole". Don't sell your unborn children (as somebody wrote on another thread). Your unborn child may just turn out to be a bastard child down the track.
___________
The cadet thing is interesting. I've heard a few stories over the years of how things work out for them. The rules are the same. You have to have a fire in your belly if you want to succeed, even as a cadet. A long time ago I was approached by a couple of cadets whose careers had stalled at the end of training. I suggested they take a particular path, invest some $$ in themselves and get some experience in GA.
One did, and the other didn't. The one who did gained valuable command hours and life experience, and the other no longer is a pilot. Being a d!ckhead didn't help the other pilot