What do you have to do to get a clearance these days?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Melbourne
Age: 72
Posts: 774
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What does the syllabus actually require, a flight to and from a control zone or Porter's heading and level changes? Students learning in Alice Springs don't get these.
Students from Moorabbin don't need to go through the ML CTR but still get a licence. What is wrong with Avalon you don't have to land?
Students from Moorabbin don't need to go through the ML CTR but still get a licence. What is wrong with Avalon you don't have to land?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 490
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did my PPL out of Essendon, and at that time a high level CTA nav over YMML was required even though every flight was out of class C. It was also required in the test, although I think it would be a harsh testing officer who made you redo because you were denied a clearance.
Yes, they wanted more than just talking to ATC - they wanted you to receive vectors and level changes in CTA.
A few years ago I looked up what was actually required for a CTA endorsement and interestingly, the instructor manual explicitly said a flight was not required - you just had to demonstrate knowledge of the procedures, and that could be done on the ground.
However, flying schools probably have to get their syllabus approved by CASA, and if CASA say you need a high level nav through CTA you probably have to put it in. And if the student cocks it up in their test, and it is discovered that you didn't actually complete it because clearance was denied...
Yes, they wanted more than just talking to ATC - they wanted you to receive vectors and level changes in CTA.
A few years ago I looked up what was actually required for a CTA endorsement and interestingly, the instructor manual explicitly said a flight was not required - you just had to demonstrate knowledge of the procedures, and that could be done on the ground.
However, flying schools probably have to get their syllabus approved by CASA, and if CASA say you need a high level nav through CTA you probably have to put it in. And if the student cocks it up in their test, and it is discovered that you didn't actually complete it because clearance was denied...
Bottums Up
I guess to some extent, VFR in a bug smasher doing circa 100-150 kts through/above the zone is a bit like agricultural machinery on a freeway, or a Sunday driver on Mt Panorama during the Bathurst whatever it's called now motor race. 
Yet they manage it at busy airports in the USA
Yet, if you said to the average Australia ---- you and your car are barred from the roads if there are trucks and buses about, there would be hell to pay ---- ain't democracy wonderful!!
With the obvious exceptions of Presidential flights, medivacs and emergencies, everybody else in US has the same priority or, more correctly, there is no ATC priority system.
Tootle pip!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 490
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess to some extent, VFR in a bug smasher doing circa 100-150 kts through/above the zone is a bit like agricultural machinery on a freeway
The same argument would be to reserve major roads for buses. It's actually kind of ironic that the only place public transport gets the priority the Greens would say it deserves is in aviation.
In reality though I'm not sure the conflict really needs to exist. Most other places the accepted wisdom is that the runways are the bottleneck, not the airspace. You can transit a lot more aircraft through airspace than you can fit onto a runway.
Either we have found a much more efficient way to use 2 intersecting runways that we should share with the world, or we have found an inefficient way to use airspace.
As far as I know the CASA recommended syllabus does not say "high level flight required above YMML in order to obtain PPL CTA endorsement."
I've flown over YMML probably more than 30 times and I don't think I've ever been given a heading or level change unless I've requested it, except for descent. That argument is moot. You've got me wondering how you can be assured of getting a heading or altitude change other than asking and if schools are doing that I'm not surprised that ATC are denying transit clearances.
Flying into and out of Essendon is a far more valuable experience for the student than a VFR transit over YMML will ever give. If it is an actual requirement of the school then do it over Moorabbin, it's still class C. My last AFR took me through class C over Moorabbin, nowhere near YMML.
TNIP - I know how syllabuses work; I wrote a Nav syllabus for a flying school. I chose the routes and distances and they did not include "flying overhead YMML."
I've flown over YMML probably more than 30 times and I don't think I've ever been given a heading or level change unless I've requested it, except for descent. That argument is moot. You've got me wondering how you can be assured of getting a heading or altitude change other than asking and if schools are doing that I'm not surprised that ATC are denying transit clearances.
Flying into and out of Essendon is a far more valuable experience for the student than a VFR transit over YMML will ever give. If it is an actual requirement of the school then do it over Moorabbin, it's still class C. My last AFR took me through class C over Moorabbin, nowhere near YMML.
TNIP - I know how syllabuses work; I wrote a Nav syllabus for a flying school. I chose the routes and distances and they did not include "flying overhead YMML."
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Umm..isn't Moorabbin Class D..? There's no doubt its a lot harder to get a clearance through CTA travelling Moorabbin to Nth West and return. Despite following recommended procedures in ERSA. Been stuffed around too many times to be bothered now. The time (and $) wasted either holding OCTA or being diverted around control steps, not to mention the aggravation just isn't worth it. Shouldn't be the case I know, but I've pretty much given up trying now and just plan the trip OCTA. Back when I did my PPL, as long as you could demonstrate you could handle an entry & departure from Essendon, you were signed off as good to go in CTA. Nothings changed with that as far as I'm aware.
>2,500ft above Moorabbin is class C. You could climb to over 4,500ft and fly from Moorabbin to near Franskton then over to Port Arlington and still get the same learning experience.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: GPS Signal Lost
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You gentleman make it sound like it is impossible to get a clearance. Flew into Essendon Sunday afternoon and got a VFR clearance for a departure to the NE for A085.
Being accurate with your EOBT would be very helpful!
Though I did hear a VFR aircraft tracking from Melton to Sunbury, who busted through the CTA step
T&G
Being accurate with your EOBT would be very helpful!
Though I did hear a VFR aircraft tracking from Melton to Sunbury, who busted through the CTA step
T&G
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
T&G, heading NE isn't the problem its heading NW eg MB to BDG and return. I know it depends a lot on which runway they're using at ML and all that but it seems like an impossible task of late.
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>2,500ft above Moorabbin is class C. You could climb to over 4,500ft and fly from Moorabbin to near Franskton then over to Port Arlington and still get the same learning experience.
you love arguing the contrary point just for sport.
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Le P,
Flying into Essendon via Class C, talking to tower controllers is not the same as transiting Class C talking to APP/DEP Controllers. Students need, in my opinion, to experience HDG & LVL changes & the dynamic environment that a TCU is. Every VFR clearance that I've done out of MB overhead ML has contained the above, I've never been given "planned route & level" on first contact.
Doing a shonky overfly of MB does not cut it I'm afraid. When farkups happen & CASA do an audit on a students CTA endorsement, who wears the liability?
Flying into Essendon via Class C, talking to tower controllers is not the same as transiting Class C talking to APP/DEP Controllers. Students need, in my opinion, to experience HDG & LVL changes & the dynamic environment that a TCU is. Every VFR clearance that I've done out of MB overhead ML has contained the above, I've never been given "planned route & level" on first contact.
Doing a shonky overfly of MB does not cut it I'm afraid. When farkups happen & CASA do an audit on a students CTA endorsement, who wears the liability?
Students need, in my opinion, to experience HDG & LVL changes & the dynamic environment that a TCU is.
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Doing a shonky overfly of MB does not cut it I'm afraid. When farkups happen & CASA do an audit on a students CTA endorsement, who wears the liability?
