To all those looking for a new job.

[50 50]

Thanks Bob I appreciate it. It might surprise traveller1982 that we are both the same age. But if I am the cause of everything wrong with kids today then I most humbly apologise, although I can't see how it's my fault. Twit.

Porter, I didn't have any buddies, and that must be the most disregarded award in Australia.

[Skydiveandy]

Wantobe - First Officers

Thanks for the message..

In the past we had advertised for first officers and have employed a number. From those adverts long ago we still have some that we will take over time if they still want the positions as they become available.

We will not be advertising again in the foreseeable future for copilots as the regulator and immigration departments are wanting to see us employ more local lads.

I am afraid the only way of getting a position with us in 2015 / 2016 would be as a Captain with the experience listed in the adverts.

Andy

[The name is Porter]

50 50 I'm sure you had buddy's, it's disregarded by whom?

Not accusing you, but it's pilots that are disregarding the award. It would have to be paid if pilots demanded it. I don't see how pilots can complain about sh!t money flying clapped out aircraft for **** money when you're 'doing it'

[Skydiveandy]

50 50

50 50 I am certainly with you when you talk about the operators that do exploit the newbie..

I am also totally against any operator that doesnt pay the minimum award. Its a legal requirement. Any operator not meeting their legal obligations regarding payroll minimums, super etc etc needs their butts kicked.

Any pilot accepting these terms are doing themselves and the industry a disservice.


Andy

[Aussie Bob]

What's your point Porter, this thread is about Andy's post. Most on this thread have at some stage worked for less than the award.

[haughtney1]

Fair dues Andy, I'm glad you clarified your initial post as just like Checkers I read it and thought "that's a bit strong mate", but I refrained from from giving you both barrels as it did just enter my mind that your message was one that's hard to convey via the Internet.
Having said that, when I was job hunting in the UK in the late 1990's it was an open secret that the CV format you speak about in terms of relevant experience was comprised of 1 x A4 sheet..and it got me my first job (on a Van no less!) because the CP was in exactly the same position as you describe..scarily so in fact.
To all and sundry..its sometimes worth remembering that even in the midst of a rant..there's some good Gen to be had
Goodluck Andy, if I was 15 years younger..lighter of kids, wife, mortgage...I might've liked going back and adding to my 800hrs of Van time

[The name is Porter]

Aussie, the point is a bloke got on here and gave a bit of advice on applying for a job, then a stack of people replied to him, whinging about flying pieces of **** for below award money. He's actually advertising for jobs well above any award job you could get in Australia.

I know the bloke who started the thread, we were working the same patch when he was in Aus. I can tell you, he worked his arse off to get to the position he's in now. He took the same path that most of the whinging has come from, except he didn't whinge. He's probably had the same knock backs that everyone else has had.

For chrissakes, stop whinging about below award money. Either accept it and shut up, or don't accept it.

[wantobe]

Cheers Andy for taking the time to reply.

Appreciated

[jas24zzk]

Quote:
Wanted Apprentice Panel Beater.
Minimum Year 10 Pass in Maths and English, and a knowledge of basic hand tools.
Award wage and entitlements.

Take a punt on the number of applications!
Zero...............?

Actually 2...it took 3 months tho.
1 wanted the Job, the other wanted his dole form signed.
Needless to say my actions on both.

Luckily the Kid that wanted the job, was actually interested an passionate about it.

[Aussie Bob]

Aussie, the point is a bloke got on here and gave a bit of advice on applying for a job, then a stack of people replied to him, whinging about flying pieces of **** for below award money. He's actually advertising for jobs well above any award job you could get in Australia.

I know all that Porter but this is an internet forum, not a rational debate.

[The name is Porter]

I know all that Porter but this is an internet forum, not a rational debate.

lol, classic!

POTY

[Metro man]

I responded to a job advert in Fridays Australian for which I didn't quite have the requirements and initially had no response, the following week the advert was repeated. The week after that I was invited for an interview. I was employed and spent the next seven years there gaining a jet endorsement and turbo prop command. When I moved on it was into the right seat of an airliner followed by a reasonably quick upgrade.

I now get paid the same money for coming into work on a day off as I did in a week working for the scum bag bush operator I was employed by when I responded to the advert.

To quote an American recruitment manager:

"I can give a little if the applicant is short on multi engine time, or doesn't have any heavy time but I will not give one inch to someone who does not have a good attitude."

[pithblot]

I'd tell some of 'em about flipping burgers.

Its good advice to meet the requirements and, as rule, don't waffle on about flipping burgers (or that you ride a Harley). Here is an 'exception that proves the rule'.



From the link,

A first officer should have 1500 hrs and 500 in multiengine jets. These minimums are not absolute—for Kostas, finding a candidate whose ethics and personality fit the department is more important than total hours in a log book.

"We can teach people to fly our way," he says. "It's much harder to teach someone the respect and caring attitude they need to succeed in this flight department."

[traveler1982]

50 50

Doesn't matter if you are aged 20 or 50 your attitude towards having to fly a

"couple of flogged out old warriors and a 182, I'm offering you the opportunity to operate these for bugger all money, in a poxy old Sh!ithole"

is indicative of someone who has never worked hard for anything in his life and thinks he is entitled to just walk into the dream job straight away. I know plenty of guys who would give their left nut for an opportunity to work hard, get some experience and move on up the ladder and build a career. In any profession you have to start at the bottom and work hard to get to the top (unless mum and dad can buy your way to the top). But this seems lost on "the kids of today". Hey but maybe this "Twit" has the wrong work ethic.

[Aussie Bob]

"couple of flogged out old warriors and a 182, I'm offering you the opportunity to operate these for bugger all money, in a poxy old Sh!ithole"

Traveler, I think you are missing the point. After 30 years of flying I admit, I still operate flogged out old aeroplanes on the odd occasion and love it. I really couldn't be happier than when I line up an old Cessna on a bush strip or wilderness river.

The point is, some employers think it is they that are doing the favour when they put you in the drivers seat. Some even think you should do it for nothing. It has to work both ways. No one is doing me a favour when they offer me these things to fly.

[50 50]

Traveller, I have no idea what your work ethic is like, nor do you mine. I have seen this "I'm the only one that works hard" attitude before. Everyone must have been gifted their license and paid for it with fairy dust! It's the same as thinking everyone bigger than you in the gym must be on steroids.

You can give your left nut to whoever you want but after 100k plus of licences endorsements and flying experience I value my investment more than being exploited for 20 bucks an hour. By the way, I write this as I sit at work on a Sunday instead of being home with my family. Gee, I'm so glad I've never had to work for anything. My twit comment stands.

[eternity]

50 50,


I understand your point about not wanting to get exploited after spending 100+k on licence etc......mate I really do

But please remember that the path to a well paid pilot job is a TWO step process. Licence....then experience.

First step....invest 100+k on licences etc.

Step Two....accept that you will initially have to work for $20 an hour (or even less) to get the experience. That's the way that it is. Do your job, keep your head down, fly under the radar....then when the next opportunity comes up, jump at it. Each job your are slowly gaining more and more experience.
Then you will find that each new job you get allows you to fly better machines for more money

The first low paying jobs with bad conditions aren't for life mate, only a short amount of time to get some experience.

Sadly.....the guys that insisted on not accepting low paying/bad condition jobs....well they got left behind.

[Clare Prop]

Thing is some people (or their parents) make that investment without doing the research into what sort of return they will get on that investment in the early stages and then whinge about it.

Some people get offered a starter job for below award wages, agree to it, shake hands on it...and then whinge about it.

I suppose these whingers fell for the scam that if they learn to fly at school "x" they are guaranteed a job with Qantas as soon as they get their licence as "there is a worldwide shortage of pilots" blah blah blah

Some people have the sense and self esteem to walk away from a potentially exploitative situation like that without taking that job, get on with their careers and recognise the importance of keeping ears open, mouth shut and networking.

[Virtually There]

Originally Posted by eternity

Do your job, keep your head down, fly under the radar....then when the next opportunity comes up, jump at it.

Thus beginneth and endeth the perpetual cycle.

How much do GA employers spend advertising and/or training up new pilots . . . only to have to do it all again every six to 12 months?

Pilots exploit employers as much as employers exploit pilots - it's a vicious cycle.

And let's face it, pilots aren't averse to exploiting each other, either, if it means getting a leg-up.

It's every man for himself in this industry - at least to some extent - and that's the crux of the issue, IMO.

I know we don't want to see ourselves in that light, but let's be honest. You either play the game or you get . . .

Originally Posted by eternity

. . . left behind.

[GTang]

I did some really good flying towing gliders in a Pawnee after I got my PPL. Hours were slow, it's about 0.2 a launch, and I got a few hundred hours over a few years but it was great flying, all stick and rudder. I wish I had kept flying for them maybe a few days a month but it got too busy with another job. Maybe one day I'll get back into it.

When I mentioned it to a another pilot and he heard it was unpaid volunteer work, I got one of those rants about the industry going down the drain, everybody not paying award, me being taken advantage of etc...

Sometimes I wonder if gliding clubs get these people knocking on the door all the time and asking for award wages when they have a full roster of tug pilots that are often passionate glider pilots themselves too and a member of the club