When will they ever learn
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Why is everyone on PPRuNe such a smarmy argumentative asshole? This is such a horrible community.
Sometimes it takes more courage to stay on the ground waiting for weather to pass over than trusting to luck and taking off. For example being No 4 waiting in turn at the holding point and watching the aircraft in front of you blast off into stormy weather while you try to evaluate the storm on your radar before it is your turn to line and up and wait. Now lined up, you get a closer look at the storm on your radar and you really don't like what you see.
As the captain of any aircraft, whether it be a airliner or a lightie, you now have to make a decision. Do I go and hope for the best - or do I request permission to vacate the runway and hold somewhere until the storm passes? All the other aircraft have disappeared up into the murk and all you can see on the runway as you are lined up next to go, are clouds of steam still obscuring the runway in the heavy rain from the heat of jet engines at full power. It is an awesome sight that often adds to the drama.
You decide based on experience that you will go with the gut feeling and meekly ask ATC that you wish to vacate now and hold. ATC directs you to a holding bay and the next aircraft behind you in the queue lines up. He is a Chinese carrier and nothing frightens him and he blasts off into the murk as well.
So far, no Mayday calls from the heroes ahead. Safely at the holding point somewhere on the airport, you begin to feel slightly guilty and a bit foolish and ask yourself are you losing your nerve for not taking off when everyone else has got away with it? Well, you shouldn't feel foolish. The others trusted to luck and maybe they were more worried about management's reaction about damaging the company on-time departure statistics than the violence of a thunderstorm overhead.
In another era, I was a dead heading observing pilot in the jump seat during landing in a typhoon affected Western Pacific island. I had been on duty for over 15 hours except observer status was not counted as duty time in that airline. We should never have been in that situation in the first place and could have easily diverted to a weather clear alternate well before ETA at the destination. The captain was very experienced but known to be slow in making decisions. Despite warnings from ATC that our destination airport was in the grip of 50-70 wind gusts in heavy rain he had this "it couldn't happen to me" attitude and so he pressed on. ATC said "Clear to land - but be aware possible debris on the runway and we cannot see the runway because we are all boarded up."
At touch down, the wind had abated somewhat but the weather was coming through in gusts with blinding rain. We arrived at the airport terminal and a crew change occurred. I was to continue dead heading to our final destination 1500 miles away over the Pacific. The new promoted captain for this sector arrived at the aircraft and announced he intended to depart since the centre of the typhoon was still 100nm away. I was appalled at his decision but was carried along with the speed of events and stayed aboard. We taxied for take off wind 45 gusting to 70 knots and heavy rain reducing vis to 300 metres at times.
The female ATC must have been astounded that we were actually going to depart in such weather because she said "Clear for take off- expect possibility of compressor stalls and debris on the runway." Compressor stall warning was a new one to me until I remembered the airport was a joint military and civil international airport and the ATC was American military.
It was midnight as we lined up and we were being shaken by massive wind gusts and suddenly the visibility was reduced to zero by the windscreen being covered in a seemingly wall of water. The first officer had kept quiet while all this was going on but now he spoke up saying we should not take off in such weather.
From the jump seat I added to his concern by saying that we could never answer to a court of inquiry if things went wrong. Faced with dissension in the ranks the captain relented and we taxied back to the terminal, much to my relief. The captain ordered everyone to stay aboard while to rushed to the Met Office. He was back inside ten minutes saying "We are going again - the typhoon centre is still 80 miles away.
I had this foreboding we weren't going to be so lucky this time around and told the captain I had been on duty for many hours as an observer and was so tired I could not continue and I was going to the pub for the night. The captain almost certainly didn't realise I was simply scared stiff that he really intended to depart in such dangerous weather conditions and that I wanted out right now. There was no time to get my bag from the cargo hold and I left the aircraft there and then. The last I saw of the aircraft was its strobe lights vanishing on the blinding rain and darkness and I silently wished the passengers and crew the best of luck.
A Customs and Immigration official drove me to the hotel where all windows had been boarded up. All I had was the clothes on me which were soaking wet. On the following day a company aircraft arrived on its normal schedule and by then the weather had abated. I dead headed on that flight home.
It turned out that my original aircraft had got away safely (?) after experiencing severe turbulence on the initial climb-out and after leaving the storm clouds behind, enjoyed a trouble free flight to its destination. My later explanation to the chief pilot that I had stayed on the ground at destination XYZ because I had been on duty for well over the legal time and was fatigued, was accepted and no one had any inkling of the real reason I left the aircraft when I did. The new captain meanwhile had been congratulated on a job well done by getting the aircraft out of the typhoon affected island and everyone went home happy. No reports were filed and no questions asked.
The point of this story is that it is no shame if a pilot decides to sit out bad weather while others decided to risk it and go.
As the captain of any aircraft, whether it be a airliner or a lightie, you now have to make a decision. Do I go and hope for the best - or do I request permission to vacate the runway and hold somewhere until the storm passes? All the other aircraft have disappeared up into the murk and all you can see on the runway as you are lined up next to go, are clouds of steam still obscuring the runway in the heavy rain from the heat of jet engines at full power. It is an awesome sight that often adds to the drama.
You decide based on experience that you will go with the gut feeling and meekly ask ATC that you wish to vacate now and hold. ATC directs you to a holding bay and the next aircraft behind you in the queue lines up. He is a Chinese carrier and nothing frightens him and he blasts off into the murk as well.
So far, no Mayday calls from the heroes ahead. Safely at the holding point somewhere on the airport, you begin to feel slightly guilty and a bit foolish and ask yourself are you losing your nerve for not taking off when everyone else has got away with it? Well, you shouldn't feel foolish. The others trusted to luck and maybe they were more worried about management's reaction about damaging the company on-time departure statistics than the violence of a thunderstorm overhead.
In another era, I was a dead heading observing pilot in the jump seat during landing in a typhoon affected Western Pacific island. I had been on duty for over 15 hours except observer status was not counted as duty time in that airline. We should never have been in that situation in the first place and could have easily diverted to a weather clear alternate well before ETA at the destination. The captain was very experienced but known to be slow in making decisions. Despite warnings from ATC that our destination airport was in the grip of 50-70 wind gusts in heavy rain he had this "it couldn't happen to me" attitude and so he pressed on. ATC said "Clear to land - but be aware possible debris on the runway and we cannot see the runway because we are all boarded up."
At touch down, the wind had abated somewhat but the weather was coming through in gusts with blinding rain. We arrived at the airport terminal and a crew change occurred. I was to continue dead heading to our final destination 1500 miles away over the Pacific. The new promoted captain for this sector arrived at the aircraft and announced he intended to depart since the centre of the typhoon was still 100nm away. I was appalled at his decision but was carried along with the speed of events and stayed aboard. We taxied for take off wind 45 gusting to 70 knots and heavy rain reducing vis to 300 metres at times.
The female ATC must have been astounded that we were actually going to depart in such weather because she said "Clear for take off- expect possibility of compressor stalls and debris on the runway." Compressor stall warning was a new one to me until I remembered the airport was a joint military and civil international airport and the ATC was American military.
It was midnight as we lined up and we were being shaken by massive wind gusts and suddenly the visibility was reduced to zero by the windscreen being covered in a seemingly wall of water. The first officer had kept quiet while all this was going on but now he spoke up saying we should not take off in such weather.
From the jump seat I added to his concern by saying that we could never answer to a court of inquiry if things went wrong. Faced with dissension in the ranks the captain relented and we taxied back to the terminal, much to my relief. The captain ordered everyone to stay aboard while to rushed to the Met Office. He was back inside ten minutes saying "We are going again - the typhoon centre is still 80 miles away.
I had this foreboding we weren't going to be so lucky this time around and told the captain I had been on duty for many hours as an observer and was so tired I could not continue and I was going to the pub for the night. The captain almost certainly didn't realise I was simply scared stiff that he really intended to depart in such dangerous weather conditions and that I wanted out right now. There was no time to get my bag from the cargo hold and I left the aircraft there and then. The last I saw of the aircraft was its strobe lights vanishing on the blinding rain and darkness and I silently wished the passengers and crew the best of luck.
A Customs and Immigration official drove me to the hotel where all windows had been boarded up. All I had was the clothes on me which were soaking wet. On the following day a company aircraft arrived on its normal schedule and by then the weather had abated. I dead headed on that flight home.
It turned out that my original aircraft had got away safely (?) after experiencing severe turbulence on the initial climb-out and after leaving the storm clouds behind, enjoyed a trouble free flight to its destination. My later explanation to the chief pilot that I had stayed on the ground at destination XYZ because I had been on duty for well over the legal time and was fatigued, was accepted and no one had any inkling of the real reason I left the aircraft when I did. The new captain meanwhile had been congratulated on a job well done by getting the aircraft out of the typhoon affected island and everyone went home happy. No reports were filed and no questions asked.
The point of this story is that it is no shame if a pilot decides to sit out bad weather while others decided to risk it and go.
WE ALL DID STUPID THINGS as inexperienced pilots
If you ain't done stupid, you ain't done nothin.
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j3, me thinks you protesteth too much, just what is your point here? You can make lots of mistakes in aviation, some you can make over and over, flying into an active TS is one that can take you out the first time you do it.
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J3, you sir are an ass, I offered you the video, all you have to do is pm me for it.
I did not lie, I have the evidence should you have the guts to pm me rather than act like a dog. You have the free choice to take off whenever you like and usually it's someone like me who has to come looking for you when your epirb goes off.
I did not lie, I have the evidence should you have the guts to pm me rather than act like a dog. You have the free choice to take off whenever you like and usually it's someone like me who has to come looking for you when your epirb goes off.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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J3; As far as I'm concerned some of the above posters have said it all. 
FWIW: Another lifetime ago one day in an A model C402, I was cruising in IMC well above one of the highest LSALTs in PNG, feeling reasonably safe, 'dumb and happy' when the turbulence started to increase in severity.
At the time I was at around 16,500' and the O2 bottle had just 'run dry!'
Whilst I was trying to work out just WTF was happening and what I should do about it, out of the corner of my eye I noticed a huge flash which was followed a second or two later by a loud bang, which I heard quite distinctly even above the noise of the engines!!
Even with an O2 deprived brain I managed to come to the conclusion that I should GTF out of that area and I made a 90 degree turn, thankfully in the right direction and soon broke visual and descended to an altitude more condusive to an aircraft with no supplementary O2.
The point is; Initially I did something stupid!
I thankfully realised that I had done so (I think it 'mazing m'self) and did something about it!
FWIW: Another lifetime ago one day in an A model C402, I was cruising in IMC well above one of the highest LSALTs in PNG, feeling reasonably safe, 'dumb and happy' when the turbulence started to increase in severity.
At the time I was at around 16,500' and the O2 bottle had just 'run dry!'
Whilst I was trying to work out just WTF was happening and what I should do about it, out of the corner of my eye I noticed a huge flash which was followed a second or two later by a loud bang, which I heard quite distinctly even above the noise of the engines!!Even with an O2 deprived brain I managed to come to the conclusion that I should GTF out of that area and I made a 90 degree turn, thankfully in the right direction and soon broke visual and descended to an altitude more condusive to an aircraft with no supplementary O2.
The point is; Initially I did something stupid!
I thankfully realised that I had done so (I think it 'mazing m'self) and did something about it!
Last edited by Pinky the pilot; 1st Mar 2015 at 02:47. Reason: removal of personal attacks and supercilious remarks
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Centaurus - Thank you
Centaurus,
Thanks for again sharing some of your wisdom. I always enjoy your posts.
You're absolutely right - it takes more guts to say 'no' sometimes than 'go'. However, from my (limited) experience, when having made 'go' or 'no-go' decisions, I have regretted going somtimes, but have never regretted staying.
As far as saying 'no' and then feeling like a wimp because all the others got in / out OK, you only need to look at Delta flight 191 (microburst). The aircraft ahead in the sequence landed with no difficulties, but that was of no help to the crew of Delta 191. What others do is irrelevant, trust your gut!
Thanks for again sharing some of your wisdom. I always enjoy your posts.
You're absolutely right - it takes more guts to say 'no' sometimes than 'go'. However, from my (limited) experience, when having made 'go' or 'no-go' decisions, I have regretted going somtimes, but have never regretted staying.
As far as saying 'no' and then feeling like a wimp because all the others got in / out OK, you only need to look at Delta flight 191 (microburst). The aircraft ahead in the sequence landed with no difficulties, but that was of no help to the crew of Delta 191. What others do is irrelevant, trust your gut!
Avgas,
All you had to do was post the video here in question. Why is that so hard? So then call me a dog, not a big insult coming from you. Your story changed 3 times. It went from blue skies after the 'storm' to rain and storms all afternoon, don't forget the horizontal rain. You can still post the video here, if it exists. Why do you need my email address and to speak to me privately? Youtube hosts so many videos it's a breeze to upload.
Pinky
Thanks for the free character assessment. I'm going to assume you've had a bit too much red on a Saturday night and let that post slide, as it is dripping with entitlement (especially your little bold quip at the end) and completely misses the point. I enjoy your posts about when you used to fly in PNG and would more than likely regret saying what is going through my mind at present. The ridiculous thing is, you prove my point with your story about being a young idiot whose oxygen bottle had just 'run out'.
This isn't about when to say no, the point is and I stress once again for the slow ones that keep missing it;
WE ALL DID STUPID THINGS WHEN WE WERE YOUNG PILOTS. We all learnt from these things. This isn't about flying through particular thunderstorms or taking off or landing in thunderstorms. It is a simple point that when we are inexperienced, we make mistakes, errors of judgement, oversights, ego, pride etc. But coming onto an anonymous forum to ingratiate yourself to those the riding the outrage bus makes you look foolish.
But once again, whatever, twist it to however you want. I'm done here.
j3
All you had to do was post the video here in question. Why is that so hard? So then call me a dog, not a big insult coming from you. Your story changed 3 times. It went from blue skies after the 'storm' to rain and storms all afternoon, don't forget the horizontal rain. You can still post the video here, if it exists. Why do you need my email address and to speak to me privately? Youtube hosts so many videos it's a breeze to upload.
Pinky
Thanks for the free character assessment. I'm going to assume you've had a bit too much red on a Saturday night and let that post slide, as it is dripping with entitlement (especially your little bold quip at the end) and completely misses the point. I enjoy your posts about when you used to fly in PNG and would more than likely regret saying what is going through my mind at present. The ridiculous thing is, you prove my point with your story about being a young idiot whose oxygen bottle had just 'run out'.
This isn't about when to say no, the point is and I stress once again for the slow ones that keep missing it;
WE ALL DID STUPID THINGS WHEN WE WERE YOUNG PILOTS. We all learnt from these things. This isn't about flying through particular thunderstorms or taking off or landing in thunderstorms. It is a simple point that when we are inexperienced, we make mistakes, errors of judgement, oversights, ego, pride etc. But coming onto an anonymous forum to ingratiate yourself to those the riding the outrage bus makes you look foolish.
But once again, whatever, twist it to however you want. I'm done here.
j3
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J3 after your previous comments I was wondering if you were a pilot or just a troll, porter seems to know you so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
You clearly don't know much about western weather patterns or you would be aware that the afternoon Storm phenomenon is usually a line of storms which is interspersed with patches of blue, in this case also bought much needed rain to the area. you called me a liar, and I do take exception to that, hence the term dog (in this case an injustice to the canines) which is an Australian vernacular for someone that does a dog act whilst hiding behind anonymity, that I will not withdraw. The reason for the OP is not to bring shame on the pilot that day, I am confident his undies will do that for him, but to again draw attention to the stupidity in leaving the ground as a result of time constraints when it is not SAFE to do so, in Australian Flying this month Jim Davis has an excellent article where a highly experienced pilot in a 210 lost her life along with two others inadvertently entering a cell, do yourself a favour and have a read. I will upload the vid on utube so you don't have to divulge your email address to the world of me.
You clearly don't know much about western weather patterns or you would be aware that the afternoon Storm phenomenon is usually a line of storms which is interspersed with patches of blue, in this case also bought much needed rain to the area. you called me a liar, and I do take exception to that, hence the term dog (in this case an injustice to the canines) which is an Australian vernacular for someone that does a dog act whilst hiding behind anonymity, that I will not withdraw. The reason for the OP is not to bring shame on the pilot that day, I am confident his undies will do that for him, but to again draw attention to the stupidity in leaving the ground as a result of time constraints when it is not SAFE to do so, in Australian Flying this month Jim Davis has an excellent article where a highly experienced pilot in a 210 lost her life along with two others inadvertently entering a cell, do yourself a favour and have a read. I will upload the vid on utube so you don't have to divulge your email address to the world of me.
Maybe he should upload it. 1. It will confirm the credibility of the opening poster and 2. It will fire a rocket up the a-rse of the pilot if CASA to talk to him. Nothing bad can come of it if nobody did anything legally wrong.....
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Originally Posted by The name is Porter
Don't worry about j3, he pays for endo's then rags others for doing it, he's got form, just saying. He's now a big man union delegate and knows it all.
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Pathetic
Seriously? J3 posts something. You disagree. He replies. You disagree again. But you've now run out of counter-arguments so all most of you can do is to go for highly personal attacks.
Pathetic.
DIVOSH!
Pathetic.
DIVOSH!
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Gosh No, DIVOSH.... once an argument over a beer would end with "I'll see you out the back....!" And probably a handshake after the bloodied noses......
Here we strut our stuff with a keyboard and mouse (weapons of choice, heh)! No risk here.
We make our own experience. Occasionally learn by it......
(From a previously bold, now old........)
Here we strut our stuff with a keyboard and mouse (weapons of choice, heh)! No risk here.
We make our own experience. Occasionally learn by it......
(From a previously bold, now old........)
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Di, being called a liar on a forum post or anywhere else is no small matter and in fact is J3's only contribution to the OP. I will upload the video, as I believe the pilot concerned was probably (marginally) legal if not stupid and in any case if you can read the rego as he disappears into the clouds and rain you would have far better optics than me. As for me I would think being called a liar is the worst insult the coward could say to a person he knows nothing about.
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If the op was seriously concerned about safety then why didn't they notify CASA though the established channels instead of glory hunting on an anonymous forum?
The PIC should surely have the right to publicly and officially clear their name, rather than have someone hide behind anonimity like a "dog".
The PIC should surely have the right to publicly and officially clear their name, rather than have someone hide behind anonimity like a "dog".
Last edited by psycho joe; 1st Mar 2015 at 20:42.
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Apt name Joe, no one has been named or shamed, so no need to clear anyone's name, feel free to pm me and I will send you the video, as I have already stated there is no suggestion that anything illegal was done, so no problemo. Provided you are suitably qualified to take off in a thunderstorm feel free to do so, oh wait maybe that's why you go by the pseudonym of Pyscho .....