What can we do? CASA ATPL
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What can we do? CASA ATPL
Both in my job and externally I mentor the occasional younger bloke and help them to achieve their career goals. The new part 61 rules has now made it extremely hard to achieve said goals, not to mention the usual story of the Casa Atpl examinations.
What options are actually out there resulting in an australian Atpl without completing CASAs new flight test and mcc regime?
Is a Trans Tasman conversion possible and what's involved from someone who's done it?
The states seems out of the picture now albeit still easier than australia but it has become quite a financial burden it would seem with the addition of the mcc course as well.
Regards dash!
What options are actually out there resulting in an australian Atpl without completing CASAs new flight test and mcc regime?
Is a Trans Tasman conversion possible and what's involved from someone who's done it?
The states seems out of the picture now albeit still easier than australia but it has become quite a financial burden it would seem with the addition of the mcc course as well.
Regards dash!
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Is a Trans Tasman conversion possible and what's involved from someone who's done it?
refer: Civil Aviation Authority of New Zealand)
and
Civil Aviation Authority of New Zealand
However just to get the ATPL in NZ can be quite tricky (but not impossible)
You will need:
-a current CPL, Instrument rating, English proficiency test and Medical.
-7 exam syllabus passes,
-then find an aircraft suitable to the director to do an ATPL flight test in which, to my best knowledge outside of the airlines is a Mojave based in Wanganui, and pay for a CAA examiner to accompany you on said test.
Total cost=
Licence conversions (feel free to add that up)
exams 7 x 237.00NZD
CAA test and issue fee 2,759.00NZD
Aircraft Costs (how longs a piece of string)
Last edited by luckyluke; 12th Dec 2014 at 03:17. Reason: Forgot medical
There are no shortcuts anymore.....if you go overseas you will still be up for a ATPL flight test ,which require Instrument ratings and MCC.(CASA does not recognise overseas MCC credits for co-pilots)
Don't forget the Night hours required......there was a massive rush prior to Sept 1st to get an ATPL.
The cost to get an ATPL in NZ, is on par with AUS....
All that has happened is overseas guys with quals and experience are coming in and converting with very little training and taking the jobs.....thank CA$A for this.
Don't forget the Night hours required......there was a massive rush prior to Sept 1st to get an ATPL.
The cost to get an ATPL in NZ, is on par with AUS....
All that has happened is overseas guys with quals and experience are coming in and converting with very little training and taking the jobs.....thank CA$A for this.
Can someone explain to me why they need this ATPL?
I've said it time and time and time again, you'll get an ATPL when you need an ATPL. In most cases, that will be when you're undergoing a command upgrade on something that needs an ATPL.
There's some obsession that you need an ATPL as soon as you meet the requirements. Why?
morno
I've said it time and time and time again, you'll get an ATPL when you need an ATPL. In most cases, that will be when you're undergoing a command upgrade on something that needs an ATPL.
There's some obsession that you need an ATPL as soon as you meet the requirements. Why?
morno
There's some obsession that you need an ATPL as soon as you meet the requirements. Why?
It matters not how many hours you have flown in command overseas or in Australia, you won't get a look in without the full Australian ATPL and not just the subjects. Same if you are applying for many overseas jobs. I understand there are other operators in Australia that require a similar qualification; meaning no ATPL - no interview. The problem is the vast oversupply of commercial pilots in Australia so the operators can pick and choose and cull the CPL's. .
Centaurus
I’m in 100% agreement with morno with this as well. Just because J* and others currently want applicants with an ATPL only indicates that there are still applicants out there that meet this requirement. With time they will dry up and Australia will go back to something like what we had in the 80’s and before where many applicants for airline positions could only get an ATPL once they were employed with an airline. Don’t forget upgrading to an ATPL is only required when being upgraded to Command. If CPL holders have the subjects completed the rest can be done in house with an airlines C&T system. Having said that though I can see the likes of J* charging for sim time etc. to do it.
In my personal opinion this restores the ATPL to the proper pinnacle in our profession it once was from the rubber stamp, out of a Cornflakes packet licence it has become.
I’m in 100% agreement with morno with this as well. Just because J* and others currently want applicants with an ATPL only indicates that there are still applicants out there that meet this requirement. With time they will dry up and Australia will go back to something like what we had in the 80’s and before where many applicants for airline positions could only get an ATPL once they were employed with an airline. Don’t forget upgrading to an ATPL is only required when being upgraded to Command. If CPL holders have the subjects completed the rest can be done in house with an airlines C&T system. Having said that though I can see the likes of J* charging for sim time etc. to do it.
In my personal opinion this restores the ATPL to the proper pinnacle in our profession it once was from the rubber stamp, out of a Cornflakes packet licence it has become.
Yep, it was the way it was done in Europe, when you had the hours for your ATPL you just informed the TRE at your next cyclic and he added on the 3 or 4 items to your normal cyclic, signed the form at that was it. No doubt an airline like Jetstar will just say NO, as that is the initial answer to everything. Don't forget Jetstar has dozens of Cadets who don't yet have an ATPL so this will become an issue pretty soon.
Centaurus,
As said above, obviously Jetstar is still able to get applicants who hold ATPL's. Surely when things settle down, they'll have to lower their requirements to accept CPL's with ATPL subjects.
Prior to the whole get the hours, fill out a form and here's an ATPL, you only got a Senior Commercial anyway and were issued with an ATPL when you got a Command at an airline. What's wrong with basically going back to that?
morno
As said above, obviously Jetstar is still able to get applicants who hold ATPL's. Surely when things settle down, they'll have to lower their requirements to accept CPL's with ATPL subjects.
Prior to the whole get the hours, fill out a form and here's an ATPL, you only got a Senior Commercial anyway and were issued with an ATPL when you got a Command at an airline. What's wrong with basically going back to that?
morno
Some good points made by regular contributors, however there are other positions (i.e. non-airline) that require an ATPL as well.
Given that some of these operators send pilots overseas to obtain a type-rating, and then convert that to an Aussie type-rating, how might these operators help their pilots obtain an ATPL? There are quite a few types for which there are no simulators in this part of the world, and CASA approve type ratings obtained overseas. Did anyone think about this before the rules changed?
Given that some of these operators send pilots overseas to obtain a type-rating, and then convert that to an Aussie type-rating, how might these operators help their pilots obtain an ATPL? There are quite a few types for which there are no simulators in this part of the world, and CASA approve type ratings obtained overseas. Did anyone think about this before the rules changed?
and were issued with an ATPL when you got a Command at an airline. What's wrong with basically going back to that?
Then Ansett had enough and told the F/O's they had two years to pass the ATPL (Senior comm) subjects or face unemployment (sacked). Not being in the airline industry at the time, I don't know what happened although I heard a few got kicked out.
I read someone here said the old ATPL was a mickey mouse as all you needed was the 1500 hours and no specific flight test. Yet no one complains about logging their instrument flight time nowadays even though the automatic pilot is engaged most of the time and the pilot "monitors" while eating his lunch and catching up on his emails. Mickey Mouse claimed instrument flight time??
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Jetstar have always had hiring policies inconsistent with logical expectations. Right now one needs "an ATPL, at least 1500 hours and all ATPL subjects." Someone at Jetstar doesn't know or care what an ATPL actually is...
However, in spite of that I'd like to know exactly who is being held back by the new rules.
Jetstar isn't doing much hiring right now, and their shortlist of applicants must be full of multi-crew glass-cockpit experienced pilots. According to their website, these people are preferred, and there are lots and lots of ATPL holders in this cohort.
I wonder really how many people are being held back by not having an ATPL yet? Not held back from applying - lots of people no doubt - but held back from actually getting a job. Very few right now I think.
However, in spite of that I'd like to know exactly who is being held back by the new rules.
Jetstar isn't doing much hiring right now, and their shortlist of applicants must be full of multi-crew glass-cockpit experienced pilots. According to their website, these people are preferred, and there are lots and lots of ATPL holders in this cohort.
I wonder really how many people are being held back by not having an ATPL yet? Not held back from applying - lots of people no doubt - but held back from actually getting a job. Very few right now I think.
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Octas,
It may surprise you that there is other aviation occurring in Australia other than high capacity RPT.
Admittedly not much since the Skull was, as has been suggested by others, directed to wipe out all forms of aviation except RPT and the RAAF.
The reason of course is that Secondary airports are far too valuable as real estate to keep them as airports.
Might be illegal for developers to contribute to politicians in NSW & other states, but this doesn't apply federally, and we all know politicians natural affinity for money.
The dwindling GA end of aviation still needs a few ATPL licences, mainly in the top end which will likely survive the longest, until the wealthy owners wake up that it's far cheaper to operate their machines on a foreign register.
As with most things in the land of OZ, money rules.
Under the new part 61 the cost of obtaining that coveted piece of paper that says you are an ATPL holder places it beyond most aspiring pilots.
The piece of paper is meaningless anyway, if you ever gained one how much of the so called theory that you struggled to learn did you ever use in practice?
The flight test? Pretty much exactly the same standard as an instrument rating, so if you have that why bother with another test?
The ATPL is in reality a process, not a qualification.
It's been said that the airlines will adjust their recruitment standards as the number of ATPL dwindles. I think it far more likely that they will look at the cost of providing an ATPL under Australian reg's and decide a 457 visa is the way to go.
It may surprise you that there is other aviation occurring in Australia other than high capacity RPT.
Admittedly not much since the Skull was, as has been suggested by others, directed to wipe out all forms of aviation except RPT and the RAAF.
The reason of course is that Secondary airports are far too valuable as real estate to keep them as airports.
Might be illegal for developers to contribute to politicians in NSW & other states, but this doesn't apply federally, and we all know politicians natural affinity for money.
The dwindling GA end of aviation still needs a few ATPL licences, mainly in the top end which will likely survive the longest, until the wealthy owners wake up that it's far cheaper to operate their machines on a foreign register.
As with most things in the land of OZ, money rules.
Under the new part 61 the cost of obtaining that coveted piece of paper that says you are an ATPL holder places it beyond most aspiring pilots.
The piece of paper is meaningless anyway, if you ever gained one how much of the so called theory that you struggled to learn did you ever use in practice?
The flight test? Pretty much exactly the same standard as an instrument rating, so if you have that why bother with another test?
The ATPL is in reality a process, not a qualification.
It's been said that the airlines will adjust their recruitment standards as the number of ATPL dwindles. I think it far more likely that they will look at the cost of providing an ATPL under Australian reg's and decide a 457 visa is the way to go.
Last edited by thorn bird; 14th Dec 2014 at 21:06.
Thorn bird is spot on....
Casa publicised the new ATPL requirements at least 24 months ago.
I will repeat there are NO shortcuts now....its going to cost more money than the average GA can afford...
Casa publicised the new ATPL requirements at least 24 months ago.
I will repeat there are NO shortcuts now....its going to cost more money than the average GA can afford...
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Thorn bird, as someone who has spent ten years in GA (overseas, but GA is still GA), I assure you I know all about non-RPT. I also know that GA pilots don't need an ATPL, unless their insurer asks for one for certain limited roles.
So who is being held back? Jetstar isn't hiring from GA!
So who is being held back? Jetstar isn't hiring from GA!
What will happen to the Guys and Gals who are in or are wanting to go to PNG and require an ATPL for that? I have had a few friends that have previously gone the US Option and gotten their ATPL there to convert back but now all the loop holes are closed how do PNG operators plan on getting ATPL holders to fly their Twotters and such?
Anyone in that part of the world heard any rumblings in regards to this?
Anyone in that part of the world heard any rumblings in regards to this?
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Very good question Ixixly. Since CASA PNG changed their rules and stated that one needs a full overseas ATPL (rather than just the written exams and then doing a flight test in PNG) before converting to a PNG ATPL the only way I can see that you can do it is to go and get an FAA ATPL and convert that.
NZ has had an ATPL flight test requirement for ever! Kiwi's have managed to get jobs all over the world with the process that has not changed in decades so it is not a real barrier.
The NZ ATPL flight test is done as a LOA on behalf of CAA in most airlines. It is not the airline flight test. It is more than just a few additions in cyclic.
The big issue that most are missing here is the time limit on the exams. If you are at the start of a slowdown in hiring it may take a while to get a position that allows you to sit the ATPL flight test. If your exams start to expire you will need to sit them a second time.
The NZ ATPL flight test is done as a LOA on behalf of CAA in most airlines. It is not the airline flight test. It is more than just a few additions in cyclic.
The big issue that most are missing here is the time limit on the exams. If you are at the start of a slowdown in hiring it may take a while to get a position that allows you to sit the ATPL flight test. If your exams start to expire you will need to sit them a second time.
As been said before it will make it difficult in the future for FOs flying jets to go overseas if that's what they want. If you wanted to go to the middle east, you will now have to go to Europe/USA/NZ and get your ATPL that way, then apply with an ICAO ATPL
Last edited by neville_nobody; 15th Dec 2014 at 22:28.