Bankstown Airport – Desperately Sad
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As a regular YSBK user I notice that the plan originally derived by BAL just hasn't come about. I believe the concept was to price GA out of the market, thus making way for RPT and jet ops.
Phase one was successful, GA has been effectively priced out. But the hoped for RPT never came. Why? There is no infrastructure near YSBK to support it. No trains, busses or even a cab rank. When old mate airline disgorges a bunch of passengers, where are they supposed to go?
There is a terminal building that I have never seen open. But it has a car park filled with UNSW students, and not even a turning circle or drop off point. Welcome to Bankstown, I hope you have arranged a lift, on a bicycle, or rickshaw, or have the ability to teleport. It's the only way you're getting out of here.
Phase one was successful, GA has been effectively priced out. But the hoped for RPT never came. Why? There is no infrastructure near YSBK to support it. No trains, busses or even a cab rank. When old mate airline disgorges a bunch of passengers, where are they supposed to go?
There is a terminal building that I have never seen open. But it has a car park filled with UNSW students, and not even a turning circle or drop off point. Welcome to Bankstown, I hope you have arranged a lift, on a bicycle, or rickshaw, or have the ability to teleport. It's the only way you're getting out of here.
supported The Archerfield AAT case with just $100 they can and will make a difference
onsite aviation student accommodation facility??
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Parts have zero to do with an hourly rate. The standard hourly rate for a car is around $150 plus an hour. Most work shops are o. Around $100 plus or minis an hour.
Lames don't set the rate the time taken or the cost of parts. It's no different to anything else. If you can't afford to maintain your aircraft to the level required sell it.
This blame the lame is just bull s$&&. The engineer has been supporting GA for ever. Time come now where it's not going to happen in the future.
Lames don't set the rate the time taken or the cost of parts. It's no different to anything else. If you can't afford to maintain your aircraft to the level required sell it.
This blame the lame is just bull s$&&. The engineer has been supporting GA for ever. Time come now where it's not going to happen in the future.
Originally Posted by Alchemy101
Are there any GA airfields in Australia that are flourishing?
Gatton? A private airpark. Wedderburn? Privately owned by its' users.
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What about the $150 charge just to plug into the work shop computer to give you a code. That's it then the spare part cost that your held to ransom over.
Our what about when you need a solicitor. How much are you charged for a phone call. Photo copying. Etc etc.
When you all relize how we'll you all been getting it for maintenance maybe then you may wake up how we'll you been looked after. How much do you think it cost the average shop just to comply wit casa regs. Tooling. Workshop manuals. Tool calibration. Etc etc. then you take your aircraft away and expect that you can pay later and use the maintenance org as your personal bank acct.
Then put up with the casa clowns.
No wonder why work shops are closing down and no ones coming through.
Our what about when you need a solicitor. How much are you charged for a phone call. Photo copying. Etc etc.
When you all relize how we'll you all been getting it for maintenance maybe then you may wake up how we'll you been looked after. How much do you think it cost the average shop just to comply wit casa regs. Tooling. Workshop manuals. Tool calibration. Etc etc. then you take your aircraft away and expect that you can pay later and use the maintenance org as your personal bank acct.
Then put up with the casa clowns.
No wonder why work shops are closing down and no ones coming through.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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So we go from the topic being bankstown airport-desperately sad, to this?
I think some professionalism on all sides would be good.
All of this is counter productive and does nothing more than to build
Contempt and disdain.
Cleared, then go somewhere where they can give you better service,
Don't put up with it if this is truly your experience.
The general consensus is that part of the problem with increasing costs in GA is tied in to the sell off of all the secondary airports.
I know that a lot of maintenance bases struggle to come up with the monthly lease Fee that has been imposed onto them, as the new owners of the airports sell off what land they can, and open up the rest to commercial operators whom are able to cover their lease costs far easier.
The hourly rate has lagged and has not increased at the same rate as most other industries over the last 20 years.
Rarely do I see the actual hours recorded and billed to most jobs either, hours are always cut off the bill, although this is probably happening less as the remaining maintenance bases tighten up due to their overheads increasing at sometimes 10% a year.
The recognition that general aviation is a unique and valuable industry probably resonates little with government departments.
Maybe the answer from here on in is the creation of more private-aero club style aerodromes for the smaller end of GA.
The fact is that as the hourly rate for engineers has increased to become well over 50% of the charge out rate, then the overheads to soak up the remaining, there is little to attract people to enter the world of owning-running an aircraft maintenance business.
After all, by the time you have spent the average 10 years or so to gain your licenses and grow your experience base, are privileged enough to gain a CofA,
find a facility, tool up, manuals, insurance etc etc, you would fairly expect to be able to expect modest return commensurate with the qualifications, and risk.
But that does not happen.
For an industry that apparently is full of thieves and open cheque books, I fail to see engineers living the high life! Far far from it.
Your best bet to lower the cost of maintenance, is, for example, just a thought,
Find someone who has the land, the Will to open an air park not too far from the action. Create an aero club or syndicate, everyone chip in to build a hangar-maybe issue shares. Them employ an engineer or two.
That way all you pay is wage rate plus a few percent to cover other associated costs.
Air parks are nothing new. Just a thought. That might work for private owners,
Would that work for a training institute?
I think some professionalism on all sides would be good.
All of this is counter productive and does nothing more than to build
Contempt and disdain.
Cleared, then go somewhere where they can give you better service,
Don't put up with it if this is truly your experience.
The general consensus is that part of the problem with increasing costs in GA is tied in to the sell off of all the secondary airports.
I know that a lot of maintenance bases struggle to come up with the monthly lease Fee that has been imposed onto them, as the new owners of the airports sell off what land they can, and open up the rest to commercial operators whom are able to cover their lease costs far easier.
The hourly rate has lagged and has not increased at the same rate as most other industries over the last 20 years.
Rarely do I see the actual hours recorded and billed to most jobs either, hours are always cut off the bill, although this is probably happening less as the remaining maintenance bases tighten up due to their overheads increasing at sometimes 10% a year.
The recognition that general aviation is a unique and valuable industry probably resonates little with government departments.
Maybe the answer from here on in is the creation of more private-aero club style aerodromes for the smaller end of GA.
The fact is that as the hourly rate for engineers has increased to become well over 50% of the charge out rate, then the overheads to soak up the remaining, there is little to attract people to enter the world of owning-running an aircraft maintenance business.
After all, by the time you have spent the average 10 years or so to gain your licenses and grow your experience base, are privileged enough to gain a CofA,
find a facility, tool up, manuals, insurance etc etc, you would fairly expect to be able to expect modest return commensurate with the qualifications, and risk.
But that does not happen.
For an industry that apparently is full of thieves and open cheque books, I fail to see engineers living the high life! Far far from it.
Your best bet to lower the cost of maintenance, is, for example, just a thought,
Find someone who has the land, the Will to open an air park not too far from the action. Create an aero club or syndicate, everyone chip in to build a hangar-maybe issue shares. Them employ an engineer or two.
That way all you pay is wage rate plus a few percent to cover other associated costs.
Air parks are nothing new. Just a thought. That might work for private owners,
Would that work for a training institute?
Perspective wrote:
"The recognition that general aviation is a unique and valuable industry probably resonates little with government departments."
I agree. And the Federal and State pollies, likewise. That's our problem!
"The recognition that general aviation is a unique and valuable industry probably resonates little with government departments."
I agree. And the Federal and State pollies, likewise. That's our problem!
Last edited by gerry111; 11th Oct 2014 at 14:04.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Forget the car comparison. If you must compare it
To anything, look at how fighters have developed over
Time. We don't fly P-51's any more, billions of dollars
Of investment results in a modern, reliable F18.
Bar the avionics, GA design and construction is pretty much still
At the mustang Era.
The topic is lowering costs, overheads.
Automotive sector is a massive market with billions in
Investment, Toyota sell, what a million cars a year?
They've sold over 40 million corolla's alone since the brand
Started.
As I said, GA is a unique industry, for ALL of our overheads
To be kept under control, a solution for all, must be
Found.
Symbiosis!
To anything, look at how fighters have developed over
Time. We don't fly P-51's any more, billions of dollars
Of investment results in a modern, reliable F18.
Bar the avionics, GA design and construction is pretty much still
At the mustang Era.
The topic is lowering costs, overheads.
Automotive sector is a massive market with billions in
Investment, Toyota sell, what a million cars a year?
They've sold over 40 million corolla's alone since the brand
Started.
As I said, GA is a unique industry, for ALL of our overheads
To be kept under control, a solution for all, must be
Found.
Symbiosis!
Join Date: Apr 2007
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The comparison is that your car is deposable your aircraft in is. The manufacture of these old aircraft did not ever think they still be flying now. As these aircraft age there cost to maintain them is going to increase. It's not my job or any maintenance org to subsidise this. As it stands the amount of hours we cut is mind blowing.
And as know one has stated as yet a library to set up is going to be around 25 k to set up and around 10k a year to keep up to date. That's before you even undone a panel
And as know one has stated as yet a library to set up is going to be around 25 k to set up and around 10k a year to keep up to date. That's before you even undone a panel
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 'Stralia!
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Here is the big difference between my car mechanic and my LAME -
I can ask both of them the same question for a quote, how long to replace the exhaust manifold on my - LAME, airplane - mechanic, car.
I get roughly the same answer, 3 hours.
The mechanic got this answer by looking in a book that listed my model of car, and the part that needed replacing and it gave an approximate time for it. He showed me this book, but I can't remember exactly what it was called.
I have no idea how my LAME arrived at this conclusion.
The mechanic had a spare guy standing around, so he helped on the job, and got it done in 2 hours, and I was charged 2 hours for the job and was able to pick the car up on time.
The LAME also had 2 guys work on my plane, at the same time, and charged me 2 X 3 hours for a total of 6 hours to complete the 3 hour job...
I can ask both of them the same question for a quote, how long to replace the exhaust manifold on my - LAME, airplane - mechanic, car.
I get roughly the same answer, 3 hours.
The mechanic got this answer by looking in a book that listed my model of car, and the part that needed replacing and it gave an approximate time for it. He showed me this book, but I can't remember exactly what it was called.
I have no idea how my LAME arrived at this conclusion.
The mechanic had a spare guy standing around, so he helped on the job, and got it done in 2 hours, and I was charged 2 hours for the job and was able to pick the car up on time.
The LAME also had 2 guys work on my plane, at the same time, and charged me 2 X 3 hours for a total of 6 hours to complete the 3 hour job...
Cars have been intentionally engineered to be low maintenance. Aircraft stopped being engineered in the '70s
If you were trying to keep a 1965-model car on the road you might have spent a small fortune by now too*, especially if the guvmint tells you you can't touch it yourself.
(* as well as having bad fuel consumption, poor crash safety and no airconditioning)
If you were trying to keep a 1965-model car on the road you might have spent a small fortune by now too*, especially if the guvmint tells you you can't touch it yourself.
(* as well as having bad fuel consumption, poor crash safety and no airconditioning)
Join Date: May 2004
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yr right, way to miss the point entirely. It wasn't about the the specifics of the job, it was about HOW LAMEs charge. I have absolutely no idea what you are banging on about for the rest of your post. Try again, but in english this time?
Andy, my car was in the last 100 serial numbers of it's type to be built in 1989, which was designed in the 70's and put into service in the early 80s. No computers etc etc. Also, I have excellent fuel consumption, all things considered, AND A/C! I think I should be fine in a car vs car crash, but I wouldn't like to test it on a tree...!
Andy, my car was in the last 100 serial numbers of it's type to be built in 1989, which was designed in the 70's and put into service in the early 80s. No computers etc etc. Also, I have excellent fuel consumption, all things considered, AND A/C! I think I should be fine in a car vs car crash, but I wouldn't like to test it on a tree...!
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Guys,
Dick smith started this thread with an aim I believe to have a
Discussion about the state of secondary airports, costs associated
With them and any one with ideas as to how to inject some positive
Changes.
I posted an idea, I don't mind if it is Poo Poo'd, as long as you have a
Better one.
Inevitably it turns into a LAME bashing thread.
Jack, I respect what you are saying and your views, keep your "thieves" comments to your self, bloody Offensive, and does nothing more than invite others with similar thoughts Rightly or wrongly, to comment, completely hijacking the intent Dick had When opening the Thread.
I'm glad you are the obviously the proud owner of an RV10, great simple
Little plane. Not everyone has the choice of being in experimental Cat. Though.
What for them.
Back on topic.
Dick smith started this thread with an aim I believe to have a
Discussion about the state of secondary airports, costs associated
With them and any one with ideas as to how to inject some positive
Changes.
I posted an idea, I don't mind if it is Poo Poo'd, as long as you have a
Better one.
Inevitably it turns into a LAME bashing thread.
Jack, I respect what you are saying and your views, keep your "thieves" comments to your self, bloody Offensive, and does nothing more than invite others with similar thoughts Rightly or wrongly, to comment, completely hijacking the intent Dick had When opening the Thread.
I'm glad you are the obviously the proud owner of an RV10, great simple
Little plane. Not everyone has the choice of being in experimental Cat. Though.
What for them.
Back on topic.
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Cars engineered to be low maintenance. I think not. Car engineered to be assembled on a production line. Large components bing bam thank you next. That is till they require repair.
Like a switch in a mates European car. $154 for the switch. 4000$ to change it. Requires the whole dash and most of the engine to be dismantled to gain access to the dash bolts.
The philosophy of aircraft has not changed and never will. Something that not a large requirement in a motor car.
Weight !!
Like a switch in a mates European car. $154 for the switch. 4000$ to change it. Requires the whole dash and most of the engine to be dismantled to gain access to the dash bolts.
The philosophy of aircraft has not changed and never will. Something that not a large requirement in a motor car.
Weight !!
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I drove around Bankstown today and visited a few flying schools, trying to hire a Cessna 172 (with absolutely no success by the way - anyone who's interested please let me know if you have a 172 you would like to hire out occasionally). It was a Sunday with perfect weather, and the place was almost completely dead. I spotted just three aircraft landings in one hour, and a couple of rich guys taking helicopter hovering lessons.
Delving into the costs of operating at Bankstown, the answer becomes clear: it is far too expensive to run a business there, or even park your own plane. I would have to say, the reason is almost certainly that the owners indeed want to sell off the airport to property developers. It's a large, flat piece of land that would be worth billions. Once the airport is dead enough, the owners can plead that they have no alternative but to shut it down and sell it off. From the owners' point-of-view, several years of (I'm guessing) multi-million-dollar losses are easily worth a payoff of a few billion.
Delving into the costs of operating at Bankstown, the answer becomes clear: it is far too expensive to run a business there, or even park your own plane. I would have to say, the reason is almost certainly that the owners indeed want to sell off the airport to property developers. It's a large, flat piece of land that would be worth billions. Once the airport is dead enough, the owners can plead that they have no alternative but to shut it down and sell it off. From the owners' point-of-view, several years of (I'm guessing) multi-million-dollar losses are easily worth a payoff of a few billion.
