Multi first or MECIR?
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Multi first or MECIR?
Just finished my CPL and have tailwheel, retrac, CSU and NVFR, so am now planning the next logical step - FIR, ME or MECIR?
I guess my question is, do I really need a command instrument rating to find work up north - or would twin time suffice until I have more money to put towards the IFR?
From what I gather, most charter and airwork up north is VFR anyway, so why the emphasis on the command instrument rating? And would it not be cheaper (and/or more sensible) to get a multi engine endorsement first (and be adept at flying twins) before tackling the IFR?
Is there any reason why most pilots elect to do their IFR and ME all in one go? Am I missing something?
Thanks in advance.
I guess my question is, do I really need a command instrument rating to find work up north - or would twin time suffice until I have more money to put towards the IFR?
From what I gather, most charter and airwork up north is VFR anyway, so why the emphasis on the command instrument rating? And would it not be cheaper (and/or more sensible) to get a multi engine endorsement first (and be adept at flying twins) before tackling the IFR?
Is there any reason why most pilots elect to do their IFR and ME all in one go? Am I missing something?
Thanks in advance.
No point getting a twin endo before heading out into charter as the training school twins are rarely the same as you will see in charter. Unless of course you actively seek a school with a islander or baron, AC50, chieftain etc to do your initial twin endo in...
Having your initial IFR before heading up North could save your bacon and give you that little edge over your competitor when applying for jobs!
What ever you do, don't waste you money on a single engine IFR or doing your rating in some fancy glass cockpit...
Can highly recommend Bob Harris in Innisfail or John Chew (somewhere between Darwin, Cairns and Melbourne)
Best of luck
Having your initial IFR before heading up North could save your bacon and give you that little edge over your competitor when applying for jobs!
What ever you do, don't waste you money on a single engine IFR or doing your rating in some fancy glass cockpit...
Can highly recommend Bob Harris in Innisfail or John Chew (somewhere between Darwin, Cairns and Melbourne)
Best of luck
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If you're still keen to invest more in this potential career, do an initial multi as there are, albeit decreasing, an amount of companys flying the od 58 exclusively VFR. To me a fresh CPL who does not have a mecir looks more attractive than one who has. It shows that you're a realist, that you haven't naively handed money over to a flying school or done some sausage factory full bells and whistles course. Once you're in the game with a couple of hundred hours under you belt, when you see that further investment in yourself and your chosen career may be worth something then go and do your mecir.
My thoughts. First of all take a look at RAAF training. The course is around 210 hours all on a single engine type. The pilots graduate with an instrument rating. It would be inconceivable for the RAAF to send a newly graduate pilot to a squadron without an instrument rating.
There is a logic in undertaking an instrument rating as soon as possible either during or after CPL. Forget VFR hours making you a better instrument pilot. Those hours mean nothing.
Despite fine weather most times up north or other parts of Australia, there will be times where a VFR pilot can be caught out - not necessarily through his own fault. Commercial pressures are real and the temptation as a new VFR charter pilot to cut corners to please your employer will be strong. You might find yourself in cloud or bad visibility or a black really black night where you need instrument flying skills to survive.
The 10 hours of dual instrument flying instruction required for a CPL does not prepare you adequately for the first time you are seriously on instruments (inadvertently or otherwise) without an instructor holding your hand.
Whether or not you can afford a multi-engine instrument rating is for you to consider. But get an instrument rating before you start job hunting and doing it on a single is one way that is affordable. There are flying schools who recommend you combine the initial twin endorsement with a multi-engine instrument rating. That gets expensive as it is all multi-engine dual.
There is nothing to stop you however, to starting the instrument rating course on a single and then change to a twin for the last few hours. Be prepared for grumbles from the flying school if you go down that path. Once you are reasonably competent on cross-country instrument flying in the single as part of the course, switching to a twin to finish off makes good sense and is cost efficient. If the flying school claims it will only do full instrument ratings either on a single or a twin but not a combination then go elsewhere.
Another point worth considering and that is the vital importance of being equally competent at instrument flying on limited panel as on full panel. By limited panel I mean without the main artificial horizon in front of you. That leaves an electrically powered Turn Coordinator and an old fashioned magnetic compass. Vacuum pumps are known to fail. Limited panel is best practiced initially on a synthetic trainer and includes take off and initial climb, unusual attitude recoveries, holding patterns and instrument approaches on limited panel. There are older pilots who were taught spinning on limited panel and recovery. That took considerable instrument flying skill especially if vertigo hit you during the spin.
Even after you have gained your instrument rating ensure you try and give yourself an hour a month in a synthetic trainer on limited panel. It can be a life saver and money well spent. EFIS instrument panels are very reliable but you can be sure that one black night in your career you will experience an event where the normal artificial horizon gives mis-leading information or fails completely. Read the ATSB report about the Piper Aztec that departed Moorabbin with a defective AH and was lucky not to have lost control in cloud
Finally:
There you go- another Ppruner suggests a different slant on things. He might be right but it becomes your call.
.
There is a logic in undertaking an instrument rating as soon as possible either during or after CPL. Forget VFR hours making you a better instrument pilot. Those hours mean nothing.
Despite fine weather most times up north or other parts of Australia, there will be times where a VFR pilot can be caught out - not necessarily through his own fault. Commercial pressures are real and the temptation as a new VFR charter pilot to cut corners to please your employer will be strong. You might find yourself in cloud or bad visibility or a black really black night where you need instrument flying skills to survive.
The 10 hours of dual instrument flying instruction required for a CPL does not prepare you adequately for the first time you are seriously on instruments (inadvertently or otherwise) without an instructor holding your hand.
Whether or not you can afford a multi-engine instrument rating is for you to consider. But get an instrument rating before you start job hunting and doing it on a single is one way that is affordable. There are flying schools who recommend you combine the initial twin endorsement with a multi-engine instrument rating. That gets expensive as it is all multi-engine dual.
There is nothing to stop you however, to starting the instrument rating course on a single and then change to a twin for the last few hours. Be prepared for grumbles from the flying school if you go down that path. Once you are reasonably competent on cross-country instrument flying in the single as part of the course, switching to a twin to finish off makes good sense and is cost efficient. If the flying school claims it will only do full instrument ratings either on a single or a twin but not a combination then go elsewhere.
Another point worth considering and that is the vital importance of being equally competent at instrument flying on limited panel as on full panel. By limited panel I mean without the main artificial horizon in front of you. That leaves an electrically powered Turn Coordinator and an old fashioned magnetic compass. Vacuum pumps are known to fail. Limited panel is best practiced initially on a synthetic trainer and includes take off and initial climb, unusual attitude recoveries, holding patterns and instrument approaches on limited panel. There are older pilots who were taught spinning on limited panel and recovery. That took considerable instrument flying skill especially if vertigo hit you during the spin.
Even after you have gained your instrument rating ensure you try and give yourself an hour a month in a synthetic trainer on limited panel. It can be a life saver and money well spent. EFIS instrument panels are very reliable but you can be sure that one black night in your career you will experience an event where the normal artificial horizon gives mis-leading information or fails completely. Read the ATSB report about the Piper Aztec that departed Moorabbin with a defective AH and was lucky not to have lost control in cloud
Finally:
Once you're in the game with a couple of hundred hours under you belt, when you see that further investment in yourself and your chosen career may be worth something then go and do your mecir.
.
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Two things not to leave home without are your ATPL subjects and a CIR.
If you can't afford the ME CIR, at least get one in a single.
Even if your job is VFR, chances are that you might/will get caught out inadvertently in IMC.
Having the confidence from a CIR rating will be invaluable and may very well save your life.
If you can't afford the ME CIR, at least get one in a single.
Even if your job is VFR, chances are that you might/will get caught out inadvertently in IMC.
Having the confidence from a CIR rating will be invaluable and may very well save your life.
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At the least do the IREX while you are still in study mode. It is unlikely you will need it in your first few years but if you have it you will be ready to jump up the ladder if an opportunity arises. If you have good paying job now I'd say do it while you can afford to pay for it as trying to save on min pay is hard.
Get an instrument rating of some flavour - maybe not M/E, but at least know (ie be trained) how to fly with less than visual reference.
First job likely to be in the NT - therefore, possibly caught out in weather during the Wet, or potentially more dangerous, wrestling with the haze prevalent over most of the region during the Dry due to the strong subsidence inversion. I recall flying an ILS into ASP close to minima because of this - yet there wasn't a cloud in the sky...
Many pilots have no idea about the challenges of flying in conditions of poor visibility / contrast.
Many GA companies couldn't give a toss whether a junior pilot has an I/R or not, and my point has nothing to do with being employable!
Changing the comment above slightly:
Do you want to possibly die in the industry because you weren't prepared to invest?
First job likely to be in the NT - therefore, possibly caught out in weather during the Wet, or potentially more dangerous, wrestling with the haze prevalent over most of the region during the Dry due to the strong subsidence inversion. I recall flying an ILS into ASP close to minima because of this - yet there wasn't a cloud in the sky...
Many pilots have no idea about the challenges of flying in conditions of poor visibility / contrast.
Many GA companies couldn't give a toss whether a junior pilot has an I/R or not, and my point has nothing to do with being employable!
Changing the comment above slightly:
Do you want to possibly die in the industry because you weren't prepared to invest?
Do you want to possibly die in the industry because you weren't prepared to invest?
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As usual, this forum has thrown up some insightful and diverse arguments, and I thank everyone for sharing their experience and opinions.
I am under no illusions as to the value of an instrument rating as a potential life-saver, employment prospect and pillar of flying skills.
My real question was how best to go about it, and a couple of posters have already given me food for thought . . .
I'm not a young bloke, and I'm not a fresh 150-hourly CPL. I've been flying privately for seven years and have about 300 hours in mostly faster (160kt) complex singles and tail draggers. I'm realistic about my future flying prospects, but I'm established and can afford to take a cut in salary and change of lifestyle to work my way up.
I like the idea of doing a CIR and ME endorsement separately, instead of bundling them together with the attendant time and cost.
Is there any real disadvantage to doing a SECIR first and then upgrading to a MECIR down the track, once I have more experience on twins? Is there any real difference in the cost of a renewal for each (apart from the difference in aircraft costs), and once you have a SECIR, is it relatively easy to convert to a MECIR?
I'm trying to be practical, as from what I've seen and read, a lot of fresh CPLs get a MECIR and don't use it for some time, but still have to soak up the initial cost and then renew it each year.
It just seems to make more sense to me to get a bit of experience flying twins first before learning how to fly them in the middle of undertaking an instrument rating!
Would it really be any more expensive/disadvantageous to get a twin endorsement and SECIR separately, then combine the two down the track?
Thanks again!
I am under no illusions as to the value of an instrument rating as a potential life-saver, employment prospect and pillar of flying skills.
My real question was how best to go about it, and a couple of posters have already given me food for thought . . .
I'm not a young bloke, and I'm not a fresh 150-hourly CPL. I've been flying privately for seven years and have about 300 hours in mostly faster (160kt) complex singles and tail draggers. I'm realistic about my future flying prospects, but I'm established and can afford to take a cut in salary and change of lifestyle to work my way up.
I like the idea of doing a CIR and ME endorsement separately, instead of bundling them together with the attendant time and cost.
Is there any real disadvantage to doing a SECIR first and then upgrading to a MECIR down the track, once I have more experience on twins? Is there any real difference in the cost of a renewal for each (apart from the difference in aircraft costs), and once you have a SECIR, is it relatively easy to convert to a MECIR?
I'm trying to be practical, as from what I've seen and read, a lot of fresh CPLs get a MECIR and don't use it for some time, but still have to soak up the initial cost and then renew it each year.
It just seems to make more sense to me to get a bit of experience flying twins first before learning how to fly them in the middle of undertaking an instrument rating!
Would it really be any more expensive/disadvantageous to get a twin endorsement and SECIR separately, then combine the two down the track?
Thanks again!
I have to agree with Square Bear.. DEFIANTLY knock off your ATPL exams before you get into flying... The number of pilots I have come across hating life because they have had to put their flying on hold to complete their exams. A little stress now saves a lot of stress later on.
It will be easier to get your CIR after a few years of flying as your skills and knowledge will be more polished. However, it can be almost impossible to get enough time off to travel back somewhere to get the rating done and not having it when the opportunity to move onto twins comes can hold you back. The twin job is almost always very short notice and operators will not wait for you to get your s$&t in one sock.
It will be easier to get your CIR after a few years of flying as your skills and knowledge will be more polished
I have to agree with Square Bear.. DEFIANTLY knock off your ATPL exams before you get into flying... The number of pilots I have come across hating life because they have had to put their flying on hold to complete their exams. A little stress now saves a lot of stress later on.
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Under Part 61, an IF rating is an IF rating.
There is no single engine vs multi.
BUT you can only fly the multi if you do a test or proficiency check in he multi. (Generally speaking)
So do a single IR and it will be easier to up grade later.
Then do an instructor rating, you will get work later.
There is no single engine vs multi.
BUT you can only fly the multi if you do a test or proficiency check in he multi. (Generally speaking)
So do a single IR and it will be easier to up grade later.
Then do an instructor rating, you will get work later.
Getting the MECIR done before you set off is essential. I personally saw 2 guys passed over for upgrade to the 310 because they didn't have MECIR's!
It also helps when you see those ads asking for "3 IFR renewals minimum" as mandatory. Wait too long and you will have 1500 hours with only one renewal.
Some companies will also be very reluctant to let you go for a month so you can go and get your MECIR sorted out. Mainly because you will also be asking for time off for ATPL's, brothers birthdays and god knows what else!!
Last but not least I have seen guys doing their MECIR in Melbourne get offered different jobs whilst doing the course. Guys who come down with 500-1000 hours single time to do MECIR's end up picking up jobs on Metro's, PA31's and the like. Whilst this by is by no means a common, operators don't like their pilots vanishing for too long as the tend not to come back.
It also helps when you see those ads asking for "3 IFR renewals minimum" as mandatory. Wait too long and you will have 1500 hours with only one renewal.
Some companies will also be very reluctant to let you go for a month so you can go and get your MECIR sorted out. Mainly because you will also be asking for time off for ATPL's, brothers birthdays and god knows what else!!
Last but not least I have seen guys doing their MECIR in Melbourne get offered different jobs whilst doing the course. Guys who come down with 500-1000 hours single time to do MECIR's end up picking up jobs on Metro's, PA31's and the like. Whilst this by is by no means a common, operators don't like their pilots vanishing for too long as the tend not to come back.
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Having re read the OP original post again the question asked was:
I have been out of GA for some time, and maybe it has changed somewhat but if you can afford it go for the MECIR. OK, you may not get a multi job first off but you will be in the running if the company needs to upgrade someone from a single to a twin.
If you can't afford a MECIR, I still suggest that you have a CIR before you leave. That is what I did, and on the next renewal I turned it into a MECIR. I didn't need the Multi one initially so I saved the cash.
However, my logic for having a rating (besides that the point that it puts you ahead of the guy without one) is that it will give you more confidence in your flying, and if you do enter IFR inadvertently you will do better than someone who has not had the training (with the exception of that that is mandatory in the CPL)
An example that comes to mind happened some years ago, totally unforcasted really bad weather rolled into Horn Island, actually rolled into the whole of the area and it went from good to bad very very fast.
Three or four aircraft in holding pattern over HID, one or two doing a missed and then out of the blue comes a voice from a driver in a fast VFR single who was in cloud, had no idea where he/she was and was asking for help.
Luckily there were many experience guys/gals who helped (one who I still applaud today who took the lead and probably saved that the day). Without that help I am not so sure that the outcome would have been so good.
Of course that is one pilot out of so many that don't get into such a bad situation, but I bet that there are also many untold stories that resemble that one. In fact, I know a few more.
I don't think anyone is trying to disrespect or insult the VFR guys, geez we probably all started there, and I really don't think anyone is trying to say you must get a rating, just that if you can, why not just not do it!
so am now planning the next logical step - FIR, ME or MECIR?
If you can't afford a MECIR, I still suggest that you have a CIR before you leave. That is what I did, and on the next renewal I turned it into a MECIR. I didn't need the Multi one initially so I saved the cash.
However, my logic for having a rating (besides that the point that it puts you ahead of the guy without one) is that it will give you more confidence in your flying, and if you do enter IFR inadvertently you will do better than someone who has not had the training (with the exception of that that is mandatory in the CPL)
An example that comes to mind happened some years ago, totally unforcasted really bad weather rolled into Horn Island, actually rolled into the whole of the area and it went from good to bad very very fast.
Three or four aircraft in holding pattern over HID, one or two doing a missed and then out of the blue comes a voice from a driver in a fast VFR single who was in cloud, had no idea where he/she was and was asking for help.
Luckily there were many experience guys/gals who helped (one who I still applaud today who took the lead and probably saved that the day). Without that help I am not so sure that the outcome would have been so good.
Of course that is one pilot out of so many that don't get into such a bad situation, but I bet that there are also many untold stories that resemble that one. In fact, I know a few more.
I don't think anyone is trying to disrespect or insult the VFR guys, geez we probably all started there, and I really don't think anyone is trying to say you must get a rating, just that if you can, why not just not do it!
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Originally Posted by CYHeli
Under Part 61, an IF rating is an IF rating.
There is no single engine vs multi.
BUT you can only fly the multi if you do a test or proficiency check in he multi. (Generally speaking)
So do a single IR and it will be easier to up grade later.
Then do an instructor rating, you will get work later
There is no single engine vs multi.
BUT you can only fly the multi if you do a test or proficiency check in he multi. (Generally speaking)
So do a single IR and it will be easier to up grade later.
Then do an instructor rating, you will get work later
Looks like there's some agreement on doing the SEIR first and then upgrading to a multi down the track or at renewal time.
I really appreciate all the advice. Getting the CPL is one thing, but deciding what to do next is an entirely different proposition!