What does in excess of 40 minutes mean?
Thread Starter
We will have to agree to disagree on this one lP. I fully understand my obligations regarding carrying the appropriate amount of fuel and using my experience over 24 years of professional aviation to judge when a forecast or TTF is not giving me the complete story. I can also have a good guess at when a westerly in Sydney is going to reduce it single runway ops and the need to take extra holding.
It is however impossible to extrapolate "in excess of" into any meaningful units of fuel to carry to satisfy the regulatory and Company requirements. Especially when this information is provided to me once I am airborne.
Thankyou for your explanation of why it occurred, it helps to shape my future decision making, which the refueller will be very happy with but my employer wont be.
It is however impossible to extrapolate "in excess of" into any meaningful units of fuel to carry to satisfy the regulatory and Company requirements. Especially when this information is provided to me once I am airborne.
Thankyou for your explanation of why it occurred, it helps to shape my future decision making, which the refueller will be very happy with but my employer wont be.
All I can say is it's no different to being told "runway closed due disabled aircraft", "thunderstorms at the field", "unforecast fog forming at the field". They're all "how long is a piece of string?" type events. How do you handle those? It's no different, you continue until you get firmer information or you divert.
Nunc est bibendum
It's a very different thing. The first is an accident. The next is an unforecast weather phenomena and thats another discussion entirely as well.
The question Lookleft asks is should he load 41 minutes and then declare a min fuel emergency when he reaches that point or should he load it up to MLW and arrive with 4 hours which is also 'in excess of 40 minutes'.
Rather than defend it, just admit that its a really ordinary outcome that tells pilots little of use. It also appears to be not in accordance with the AIP SUP
If you think it's going to be up to an hour, then tell us 60 minutes. If you think it's going to exceed that, tell us 75 minutes.
The question Lookleft asks is should he load 41 minutes and then declare a min fuel emergency when he reaches that point or should he load it up to MLW and arrive with 4 hours which is also 'in excess of 40 minutes'.
Rather than defend it, just admit that its a really ordinary outcome that tells pilots little of use. It also appears to be not in accordance with the AIP SUP
ATC will advise the holding time by NOTAM.
Keg, I'm not defending it, just telling it as it is. And as for it not being in accordance with the supp you need to read the rest of the para (my bolding):
"When traffic delays for these locations are expected to exceed these times, and in any case when significant traffic delays at other aerodromes are anticipated, ATC will advise the holding time by NOTAM"
The excessive delays were neither expected nor anticipated. Something changed and caused them to blow out.
I don't know how long the process takes to run the numbers and generate a new holding NOTAM or even if it can handle using live traffic as a starting point. It's certainly not instantaneous & isn't triggered automatically.
"When traffic delays for these locations are expected to exceed these times, and in any case when significant traffic delays at other aerodromes are anticipated, ATC will advise the holding time by NOTAM"
The excessive delays were neither expected nor anticipated. Something changed and caused them to blow out.
I don't know how long the process takes to run the numbers and generate a new holding NOTAM or even if it can handle using live traffic as a starting point. It's certainly not instantaneous & isn't triggered automatically.
Like I asked, what is done elsewhere? If it's done better somewhere else ASA needs to know about it.
It was one of the more "interesting" things I had to get used to in Europe. Having said that, the slot system is quite advanced, so holding airborne (for traffic) is pretty rare.
Thread Starter
JR my recent international experience is limited to 2 hours beyond the shores of the Australian mainland and I don't recall being hit with an in excess of traffic holding advisory and I don't even recall a statutory traffic holding advisory. I did once get caught with an unexpected 60 minutes holding going into Singapore on the day QF32 had its event but it was still a defined time limit. I routinely carried 60 minutes going into Singapore anyway so no problems. I'm not sure what happens in the bigger world of aviation so I don't know whether the term "in excess of" is international phraseology.
To quote the rest of the AIC:
"Notwithstanding any advisories issued, the pilot in command of an aircraft arriving at a destination without sufficient fuel for actual traffic holding will not be accorded a priority approach unless the pilot declares an emergency"
Notice once again the use of the word actual. Airservices, in providing an open ended estimate of traffic holding is basically saying go away or declare a fuel emergency. The AIC is basically saying the information you need is nebulous and we take no responsibility for providing useful information on which to base a reasonable course of action. You do however have the facility to declare a fuel emergency to get you on the ground but that would be your fault. Nothing to do with our system or not allowing ATCOS to use their judgement and experience to provide a better outcome.
To quote the rest of the AIC:
"Notwithstanding any advisories issued, the pilot in command of an aircraft arriving at a destination without sufficient fuel for actual traffic holding will not be accorded a priority approach unless the pilot declares an emergency"
Notice once again the use of the word actual. Airservices, in providing an open ended estimate of traffic holding is basically saying go away or declare a fuel emergency. The AIC is basically saying the information you need is nebulous and we take no responsibility for providing useful information on which to base a reasonable course of action. You do however have the facility to declare a fuel emergency to get you on the ground but that would be your fault. Nothing to do with our system or not allowing ATCOS to use their judgement and experience to provide a better outcome.
You misunderstand what the "in excess of" is signifying. It's not an estimate of anything or a forecast or substitute for a NOTAM. It's an observation of fact - the fact that aircraft right now are experiencing delays in excess of XX minutes. Nothing more. You want it to be more, but it's not.
It's like a METAR or observation of windshear advised on the ATIS or *any* other observation - it may or may not affect your flight later but be prepared for it to.
It's nothing to do with preventing us using our judgement or experience - we just don't have the tools to do it at the centre.
At the console the only tool we have to tell us delays is MAESTRO - that gives an idea roughly 90 minutes ahead (that's 90 minutes including any actual delay). It's a tactical tool so only includes aircraft actually in the air and not those about to depart. 60 minutes from arrival we could tell you your current delay is 10 minutes but then 10 aircraft depart to arrive before you and your delay is now 40 minutes.
It's like a METAR or observation of windshear advised on the ATIS or *any* other observation - it may or may not affect your flight later but be prepared for it to.
It's nothing to do with preventing us using our judgement or experience - we just don't have the tools to do it at the centre.
At the console the only tool we have to tell us delays is MAESTRO - that gives an idea roughly 90 minutes ahead (that's 90 minutes including any actual delay). It's a tactical tool so only includes aircraft actually in the air and not those about to depart. 60 minutes from arrival we could tell you your current delay is 10 minutes but then 10 aircraft depart to arrive before you and your delay is now 40 minutes.
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Lookleft thanks, I can't offer a solution other than to tell whomever implemented this that it's not good enough. It doesn't appear to me to be a sound policy but I'll bet that whomever came up with this isn't a pilot or ATC.
