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USA anyone? Lets all go!

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Old 22nd Jul 2014, 19:51
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Yep, $22k p/a with crap conditions and you probably get to fly half way across the USA, sleep an hour on a piss stained couch in a rampies muster room before you even sign on! Yep, the USA has a few "Colgan's" still - where do I sign up???
This is gold. Some airlines in the US are still like that, I used to work for one but the starting salary was even lower. But seriously this ad sounds fishy.
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Old 22nd Jul 2014, 20:23
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If this was a serious ad, why wouldn't they just advertise the position properly? Like name of company, aircraft type and a company email address.

I think this is more information gathering for some up to no good people. Stay away ppl.

I think it's time for AFAP to change and require that an ad must have advertise ABN or name if company. If I want to sell my car online I have to advertise the rego or last few digits if the VIN.
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Old 22nd Jul 2014, 23:13
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I think SHVC in post #25 has it right.
The fact that they don't identify the aircraft type or company suggests it is some kind of ball busting exercise to keep a lid on local wages and conditions.
Also, have they cleared this program with the relevant immigration authority?
The Yanks are very picky about who they allow in on work visas.
Should it prove to be kosher, a candidate would need to consider carefully whether the investment in relocation costs and two years minimum service living below subsistence level would eventually be repaid by being welcomed into a better airline job.
Meantime if our local airlines do start hiring again in the next two years, those pilots who hang in here could get lucky and jump ahead of those who venture offshore anyway.
The only good thing I see here is if the offer to pay for training by the employer does prove to be true and with no other string attached than two years return of service.
As always, caveat emptor.
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Old 22nd Jul 2014, 23:33
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I flew on a B1900 from LAX to Merced a few weeks ago - they have stripped the interior down to 9 pax seats because they can't get FOs with ATPLs.
The cost of living in the USA is very very low compared to here. 3 of us ate breakfast in a diner every morning for less than $25 including tips - you would be hard pressed to get breakfast for one in Australia at that price.
Preferred spirit of Choice in Aus is $58 for 750ml or $30 for 1.75lts in the US... that's $78/lt vs $18/lt for exactly the same product.
Fresh fruit and veg about half of the Aus price.

On the down side, these low prices are due low taxes which means not much social support as we know it here. All fine till you get sick!

You can't judge the advert till you make an application and get more info. I suggest it is a recruitment firm on a fishing trip or an operator doing same.

Surely it can't hurt to apply and find out?
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 00:51
  #25 (permalink)  
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Reply as follows:

We are an organisation that has been appointed by the USA Airline to conduct pre-screening of applicants and at this point, the Airline has requested that we do not reveal company details until we move to the next step in the process.
A few points to note:
1. We have received a number of applications from people that do not yet hold an ATPL. You must have an ATPL for this position. Some applicants have the issue of their ATPL imminent and of course these applicants will be considered.
2. We have received a number of applications from New Zealand Citizens. We are currently checking with our client as to whether this opportunity can also be offered to New Zealand citizens.
3. Some of the applicants are highly qualified with thousands of hours of experience. Due to the renumeration offered (US$ low 30k's) this opportunity is probably best suited to someone with no or limited airline experience that is looking for an opportunity to be provided with a medium size jet rating at no cost and a "start" in the Airline industry.
We are also in the process of checking with our client as to whether there are any opportunities that can be offered to highly experienced applicants.
We have received a significant number of applications and will be reviewing these over the next 10 days.
Once again, we thank you for your interest and will be in contact again with every applicant by Saturday 2nd August.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 01:03
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Make sure that the position includes a medical plan. A visit to a GP will cost you $250. There is no Bulk Billing!

In the car park at KLAX adjacent to RWY 25L threshold there are dozens of camper vans. These are where many regional pilots live. Salaries in USA for pilots will not sustain you and you will need a second job or another income stream. Remember Colgan?

I understand that the local rules will require 1500 hours. A visa to work in the USA could be useful. The Yanks do Aviation quite well. Don't arrive on their doorstep expecting to show them how it's all done. FAA check rides and oral exams are thorough and make up for how slack the written exams are.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 02:59
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1. We have received a number of applications from people that do not yet hold an ATPL. You must have an ATPL for this position. Some applicants have the issue of their ATPL imminent and of course these applicants will be considered.
Guys with 1500hrs but without ATPL can still obtain FAA ATP by passing a written test and type rating checkride. Insisting on ATPL holders is quite a nonsense.

By the way, I'm curious whether they are hiring aussies based on E-3 visa. Does anybody know?
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 03:24
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New FAA ATP requirements.

Just another thing to consider is the FAA ATP rules are changing AUG 1.
"One of the final rule’s provisions will require applicants for an ATP certificate to complete a new, FAA-approved Airline Transport Pilot Certification Training Program (ATP CTP) prior to taking the knowledge written exam.
Still unknown, also, are costs and prerequisites. At a minimum, the programs will consist of 30 hours of academic coursework, and 10 hours of training in flight simulator training devices (FSTDs): six hours in a Level C or higher full flight simulator and four hours in a Level 4 or higher flight training device (FTD). Instructors for the training programs must hold an ATP certificate, and have had experience in Part 121 operations."
Will this airline pay for this??
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 03:28
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Just another thing to consider is the FAA ATP rules are changing AUG 1.
"One of the final rule’s provisions will require applicants for an ATP certificate to complete a new, FAA-approved Airline Transport Pilot Certification Training Program (ATP CTP) prior to taking the knowledge written exam.
Still unknown, also, are costs and prerequisites. At a minimum, the programs will consist of 30 hours of academic coursework, and 10 hours of training in flight simulator training devices (FSTDs): six hours in a Level C or higher full flight simulator and four hours in a Level 4 or higher flight training device (FTD). Instructors for the training programs must hold an ATP certificate, and have had experience in Part 121 operations."
Will this airline pay for this??
Those sim training can be a part of type rating anyway.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 03:32
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Yes true, but the point is that it's not going to be as simple as showing up to take a written with minimal study anymore.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 04:13
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Due to the renumeration offered (US$ low 30k's)
We have received a significant number of applications
F**king typical.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 06:32
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Ad now removed from AFAP. Didn't last long.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 12:19
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I've had to write this a few times lately
If it looks like poo, smells like poo, and tastes like poo..
It's poo...
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 12:38
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Thank god you didn't step in it!
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 14:28
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To all considering this:

Hi guys

I am a Kiwi who has worked in both NZ and Australia and is now flying for the regionals here in the USA. I moved to the states for love and definitely not for the flying job. Love makes us do ridiculous things sometimes!

I was made aware of the job posting from a few friends in Australia who wanted to know what the story is here in the USA and if this job is worth considering. I wanted to post this to give you all some insight into what it is like flying in the USA.

Background and regulations:
The regional airlines started on the basis of cheap labor and fairly simple aircraft. Turbo props were the standard equipment and most people only had to stay a few years before moving onto the major airlines. This system worked quite well while the minimum hiring requirements were 250hrs as this was a great way to build experience before stepping up to the jet. Then 9/11 happened.
A lot of pilots were furloughed and some pilots from mainline flowed back into the regionals. The regionals by this time were now flying relatively complex jet aircraft like the Embraer 145 and CRJ200. The regional pilots were now stuck in their regional jobs as the major carriers ceased hiring. The great recession of 2008 resulted in bankruptcies and airline mergers between some majors. During bankruptcies, pilots and other employee groups gave major concessions in order to help the company survive and get out of bankruptcy. Things didn't get any easier for the industry when Colgan 3407 crashed.
As a result of the Colgan accident, the FAA implemented new rules which came into effect August 2013. The minimums for an airline First Officer were now 1500hrs minimum (can be lower if military or if training was at an approved school with a 4 year degree) and an ATP. This is where the USA pilot shortage began. Airlines are blaming the new regulations for the shortage while the pilot unions are saying that there is no pilot shortage. There is only a shortage of pilots willing to fly for poverty wages. A new regulation that is coming into effect in August 2014 is that ATP applicants will now need an extra 10hrs sim time with 6 of those hours being in a level C or D simulator. This will increase the cost of obtaining an ATP and result in fewer ATP applications.
Meanwhile, the pilots shortage argument is still developing. Airline management of some regional airlines have come to their pilots offering new aircraft, such as the Embraer 175 and CRJ900, to replace the aging 50 seat jets. The catch? Well, management thinks we should take a pay cut to fly these "shiny new jets."
In summary, the regional pilots have lost about 10 years in career progression due to 9/11 and the 2008 recession. Majors have only just recently began hiring and they are expecting to continue hiring large numbers in the next few years. This is primarily due to retirements since the retirement ages was increased from 60 to 65 years old about 5 years ago. The major carries will not have a pilot shortage though, it will be the regionals and it has already began.

Pay:
First Year regional FO's will take home about $23k after tax with per deim included. Second year pay is about $31k take home and it slowly increase from there until you make captain (about a 6 year upgrade time right now).
It is cheaper to live in the USA, but not that much cheaper. I would equate first year pay to about AUS$35-38k while living in Australia with the higher living costs. I hope that gives you all an idea of what to expect in terms of compensation.

Other opportunities:
The business jet market is huge over here compared to elsewhere in the world. These jobs pay better but are harder to find and even harder to get a work visa for. Job security can be a worry if the company you work for ever goes under. But for comparison, I know an FO that started on a BD700 for about $70k and is in a 17 days on 13 days off schedule.

The future for regionals:
Well, that really is anybody's guess. Regional airlines will start flying bigger jets with less frequency to some destinations. This will help with the pilot shortage somewhat, but this will not solve the issue. Increase of pay seems to be the logical answer, but airline management obviously does not want to do this yet. Right now it is a "wait and see what happens" kind of game.

To those who want to come over, good luck! You will meet some great people and have some fun over here. I hope this has given you some insight so you know what to expect.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 18:19
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Those sim training can be a part of type rating anyway.
Just for the record, buried in all the FAA guidance for the new new ATP training program they say if an airline decides to offer it, it has to be separate from the initial new hire training program. They do say if the airline puts people through the ATP training program they can apply to have the initial training program reduced. Then you have the problem of having two different initial programs.
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 18:35
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I’m an Aussie currently flying in the USA for a large jet regional. I have dual citizenship and also moved to the USA for love. Damn these American women! Currently NO regional allows foreigners to fly for them unless they have a permanent residency in the form of a green card or US citizenship. Also NO regional airline in the US will sponsor you or is allowed to under the current system. The airlines would need to prove first that there is a lack of pilots here in the US before the government would allow visas to foreign pilots which is something the pilot unions here would have something to say about.

Currently, there is no shortage of pilots, just a shortage willing to work for what a regional will currently pay.

For example my experience on first year regional pay is this-
$23 an hour at a monthly guarantee of 75hrs = $1725 Gross
Per Diem paid at $1.65 an hour

Now being on reserve for the first 6 months meant that I never broke guarantee and per diem was only a couple of hundred dollars a month.
Now take out deductions of State Tax, Medicare, Federal Tax, Social Security, Medical, Dental, union dues and uniform and your net comes out to about $1200 to $1300 a month. Not a whole lot to live on and pretty embarrassing as a “professional pilot” to earn so little. Try living on this after paying the rent in a major US city.

The regionals here are starting to panic as the endless pool of cheap pilots is starting to dry up and they are trying everything possible rather than raising pay and benefits. Three of the largest regionals totaling around 9500 pilots voted down substandard or concessionary contracts put forward by their respective companies earlier in the year. It will be interesting to see how things play out. As for the job posting on AFAP I find it hard to believe that this is legit. Why would a US regional who are already a bunch of tight wads bring in foreign pilots on an all expenses paid move to the US?
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Old 23rd Jul 2014, 20:19
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Hello to all on this thread from the land of Oz. I am a yank who works for a major carrier and who does union work in training. In the past our training guys worked very closely with the company to ensure that they were getting people who would pass the required training with no problems.

It does not save the company any money at all to hire marginal candidates who are always on the verge of not qualifying or who are unable to complete training. Many of our committee members are active or former check airman.

However now the company has definitely given our training committee the cold shoulder. It is not that management labor relations are bad, they are not. It is not that the company is not profitable, they are. It is because the mess the industry now finds itself in is purely of their own making.

The current version of the Regional Airline Industry in the United States did not arise out of an independent market forces. It is a creation of the Major carriers. Immediately after President Jimmy Carter signed the Airline Deregulation Act in 1978, there was an explosion of small regional carriers operating turboprop equipment that were feeding the new hubs that major carriers were forming.

In the late 70's and 80's there regional airlines popping up everywhere. Look at this Wikipedia site to see how many there were.

http://en.wikipedia.or/wiki/List_of_..._United_States

As the new deregulated industry matured there was no longer endless growth and some of the hub system was mostly complete. The majors now needed to compete with a "branded product" instead of a simple "code share" so they started the Wholly owned concept. American Eagle was one of the first. Delta acquired Comair, an independent Regional, United had a major stake in Air Wisconsin etc.

By the Early 90's the growth had stopped and the airlines were looking for ways to cut costs. Along comes Bombardier and Embrarer with an idea to build the RJ or regional Jet. The problem was the scope protections built into the major airline pilot contracts. Those contracts forbade the Regional's from flying jets under the majors colors.

American went on strike over the issue and the President intervened, as he is allowed to do under the Railway Labor Act, and the RJ was firmly entrenched in the US. (I believe that the first RJ was operated by Comair, under a Delta contract but that was done under an agreement with the Delta pilots.)

The only problem with the RJ concept of Regional Airlines is that the RJ is a crappy platform for fuel economy. On a per seat basis the RJ is far more expensive to operate than a larger Boeing or an Airbus. When the CRJ first flew in the US in the mid 90's to cost per barrel of oil was about $22. It is now over $100. Delta parked the majority of the Comair RJ fleet in the desert. http://aviationdoctor.files.wordpres...h-22145611.jpg

The US RJ industry is a Frankenstein Monster that the Major's created. It cannot stand on its own. It was created for the purpose of defeating the scope language of major carrier pilot contracts. It uses inefficient aircraft and due to high fuel costs the profitability of the industry is always on the edge. The pilots have all been beaten up and are not willing to give concessions when the major partners are turning in record profits. The majors realize they are unlikely to get significant cost relief from pilot contracts.

The majors are turning to any scheme they can to see if they can get pilots to fill the seats at the regional level. What I see from this effort is the RAA, (US Regional Aircraft Association) doing an internet reach out to Australia and NZ to see if qualified candidates willing to send CV's and apply. If there are then there will be a major lobbying push up on Capitol Hill for waivers on green cards due to a shortage of qualified candidates in the US. US law allows immigration waivers where an employer can demonstrate a shortage of qualified individuals in the US for a given job or profession. The problem of course is not a shortage of pilots but a shortage of dollars to pay those pilots.

If you think that the United States Congress provides the best form of government that money can buy then I invite you to send your resume and work for less than a 40 hour week at McDonalds pays. Our Congress will most likely grant exemptions and a whole new crop of hopefuls will get off the "boat" with SJS, or Shiny Jet Syndrome and then realize later that it was all a scam.
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Old 24th Jul 2014, 03:48
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Before you come over here be prepared for this:

They Took Our Jobs - YouTube

You've been warned!!!
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Old 25th Jul 2014, 06:30
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fpvdude
Devils advocate hat on for just this post, but...

Even though the salary itself is ridiculously low, IF one was going to commit to only two years (and assuming they got the gig), wouldn't they do well due to the fact that the endo is completely paid for on a jet, all moving and relocation costs are paid including airfares and visas, ...
They said "and other associated costs of moving to the USA"

You read "all moving and relocation costs are paid "

I'm sure that what you inferrd is what they would like to have readers believe, but it's certainly not what they said. I would suggest that "other associated costs of moving to the USA is something like, we'll pay for you to check, not just one, but *TWO* suitcases (under 25 kilos)
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