ATSB Short Report on dodgy AH. Aspects of airmanship, maybe?
Thread Starter
ATSB Short Report on dodgy AH. Aspects of airmanship, maybe?
A frightening situation for any Aztec pilot to find himself in. And what an extraordinary series of instrument failures (both AH's unreliable as well as crook GPS and ADF playing up as well. Without knowing the all the facts of the incident apart from what was published, one ponders the wisdom or otherwise of the pilot deciding to continue the flight when it was obvious his primary AH was unserviceable soon after the aircraft left Moorabbin. An aft Cof G seemed not to have helped either.
While commercial pressures are often uppermost in the minds of most charter pilots, nevertheless good airmanship would have dictated it would be unwise to continue the flight with a known dodgy artificial horizon in the weather conditions that were forecast. Especially as the departure aerodrome was only a few minutes return flight.
The type of failure described would suggest it may have happened on other occasions but as the AH came good in level flight, shrugged off as just one of those things. I am not saying it happened here of course. It would be interesting to know if the same AH had shown similar tendencies on previous flights. If so, was the defect recorded in the maintenance release or left to word of mouth between pilots and LAME's?
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5248560...-072_final.pdf
While commercial pressures are often uppermost in the minds of most charter pilots, nevertheless good airmanship would have dictated it would be unwise to continue the flight with a known dodgy artificial horizon in the weather conditions that were forecast. Especially as the departure aerodrome was only a few minutes return flight.
The type of failure described would suggest it may have happened on other occasions but as the AH came good in level flight, shrugged off as just one of those things. I am not saying it happened here of course. It would be interesting to know if the same AH had shown similar tendencies on previous flights. If so, was the defect recorded in the maintenance release or left to word of mouth between pilots and LAME's?
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5248560...-072_final.pdf
Last edited by Centaurus; 15th Jul 2014 at 13:12.
And then the pilot decided to use an Ipad that subsequently died while he was dicking around scud running. The decision making that comes out of some of these reports is absolutely dreadful.
On the other hand thumbs up to the pilot flying the Baron that done a wheels up.
On the other hand thumbs up to the pilot flying the Baron that done a wheels up.
Loading the baggage in the rear cargo locker moved the centre of gravity aft. However, this may have resulted in the centre of gravity being beyond the rear limit
It raises an interesting question about equipment redundancy. Is it there to get you to your destination, or just to allow you to abort the mission safely?
"Aztruck"
One has to wonder what pressures a pilot to continue on like that. I mean we have all sorts of support stuff for human decisions making, Christ we have several industries all built on this hairy fairy stuff!
The human brain, it's an amazing piece of yukky stuff & we virtually know zip about it as shown here!:-)
They gotta hurry up & invent the pilot-less plane where the owner/operator just sits in his house sends commands to the machine all the while wearing thongs & shorts, assuming it's a flight to Cairns
Wmk2
One has to wonder what pressures a pilot to continue on like that. I mean we have all sorts of support stuff for human decisions making, Christ we have several industries all built on this hairy fairy stuff!
The human brain, it's an amazing piece of yukky stuff & we virtually know zip about it as shown here!:-)
They gotta hurry up & invent the pilot-less plane where the owner/operator just sits in his house sends commands to the machine all the while wearing thongs & shorts, assuming it's a flight to Cairns
Wmk2
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'xxx' I believe they split up the Apache & Aztruck ID's, now PA23/PA27 respectively. Probably to avoid confusion speed wise, who knows why the rule makers do anything when it comes to aviation!:-)
Wmk2
Wmk2
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I remember flying an Apache on line at Essendon Flying School many years ago. The door came open on approach to Moorabbin and it was well nigh impossible to close it in flight. The airflow disruption caused alarming elevator oscillations. I snagged it in the maintenance release and the owner went ape when his lovely "clean" maintenance release was sullied with an entry. The problem was a defective over the centre locking mechanism and unless the pilot very carefully positioned the door handle in exactly the right position the door could open in flight.
The owner refused to have the defect rectified. After that I carried a strong elastic band to secure the door handle so it wouldn't move in flight. Same owner had Cessna 150 which he hired out to another nearby flying school. When the other flying school pilot pre-flighted the aircraft he saw the nose wheel tyre looked awfully flat so he pumped it to the correct pressure and flew. Except that on take off and landing he experienced very frightening nose wheel shimmy. He reported that defect to the owner who again was prone to go ape if anyone dare snag his aircraft. It transpired the owner was well aware of the nose-wheel shimmy in his Cessna 150 but refused to get it fixed because he didn't want to spend money on rectification.
So he fixed the shimmy problem in his own way by reducing the tyre pressure to about 50% of the recommended figure. That minimised the shimmy.
The owner refused to have the defect rectified. After that I carried a strong elastic band to secure the door handle so it wouldn't move in flight. Same owner had Cessna 150 which he hired out to another nearby flying school. When the other flying school pilot pre-flighted the aircraft he saw the nose wheel tyre looked awfully flat so he pumped it to the correct pressure and flew. Except that on take off and landing he experienced very frightening nose wheel shimmy. He reported that defect to the owner who again was prone to go ape if anyone dare snag his aircraft. It transpired the owner was well aware of the nose-wheel shimmy in his Cessna 150 but refused to get it fixed because he didn't want to spend money on rectification.
So he fixed the shimmy problem in his own way by reducing the tyre pressure to about 50% of the recommended figure. That minimised the shimmy.
I was thinking: "So far; So good", until I reached this:
So your way of mitigating the risk of "alarming elevator oscillations" was to secure the door handle with "a strong elastic band"?
And people wonder why CASA takes regulatory action ...
The owner deserved a regulatory rogering and you deserved to have your licence pulled.
The owner refused to have the defect rectified. After that I carried a strong elastic band to secure the door handle so it wouldn't move in flight.
And people wonder why CASA takes regulatory action ...
The owner deserved a regulatory rogering and you deserved to have your licence pulled.
Bloody cabin door poped open on me in an F model Aztec just after take off one day, extremely difficult to handle due to the degraded elevator control. Managed to get it around the circuit and back on the ground quickly thank god - bloody thing nearly killed me.
My stuff up, the door wasn't latched correctly. Pretty common as I since found out from other experienced Aztec pilots.
And yep I also flew ECY! Didn't have any door problems though, I actually quite enjoyed flying the old girl, anyone know if it's still flying somewhere. I'm pretty sure the bloke who owned the flying school has now retired, he was a good bloke I thought - his aircraft weren't the newest and best looking on the paddock however I found them reasonably reliable.
My stuff up, the door wasn't latched correctly. Pretty common as I since found out from other experienced Aztec pilots.
And yep I also flew ECY! Didn't have any door problems though, I actually quite enjoyed flying the old girl, anyone know if it's still flying somewhere. I'm pretty sure the bloke who owned the flying school has now retired, he was a good bloke I thought - his aircraft weren't the newest and best looking on the paddock however I found them reasonably reliable.
Thread Starter
I'm pretty sure the bloke who owned the flying school has now retired, he was a good bloke I thought
This could have been the same Aztec and the same owner.
Years ago when we had flexibility in such things, a colleague hired an Aztec out of Essendon with the intention of having me renew his instrument rating.
During the pre flight I noticed a strong smell of avgas in the cockpit, so got out and shook the wing a bit to see whether the fuel caps were leaking. Not so, but fuel p!ssed out of the centre section below the cockpit.
Of course we did not fly it. The owner went nuts when we made a maintenance release entry, saying something to the effect that we were trying to run him out of business. With that attitude, it's a pity that we didn't.
As for doors coming unlatched in flight, it was so common with old Aztecs that we included a training exercise that required a landing with the door buffeting away in the breeze. I can't remember the drill now, but it was something like not changing the flap setting and maybe adding a few knots to the approach speed and just accepting it, rather than risking loss of control while fighting with the latches on the far side of the cockpit.
Back on this thread, although our hero made plenty of mistakes and obviously was over dependant on modern electronic pilot comforters, give him credit for not becoming so panicked that he totally lost it. As they say, "any landing you walk away from is a good one." To which I would add "even better if the aeroplane remains intact."
If our hero has learned from this scary experience, he should be a better pilot for it.
,
Years ago when we had flexibility in such things, a colleague hired an Aztec out of Essendon with the intention of having me renew his instrument rating.
During the pre flight I noticed a strong smell of avgas in the cockpit, so got out and shook the wing a bit to see whether the fuel caps were leaking. Not so, but fuel p!ssed out of the centre section below the cockpit.
Of course we did not fly it. The owner went nuts when we made a maintenance release entry, saying something to the effect that we were trying to run him out of business. With that attitude, it's a pity that we didn't.
As for doors coming unlatched in flight, it was so common with old Aztecs that we included a training exercise that required a landing with the door buffeting away in the breeze. I can't remember the drill now, but it was something like not changing the flap setting and maybe adding a few knots to the approach speed and just accepting it, rather than risking loss of control while fighting with the latches on the far side of the cockpit.
Back on this thread, although our hero made plenty of mistakes and obviously was over dependant on modern electronic pilot comforters, give him credit for not becoming so panicked that he totally lost it. As they say, "any landing you walk away from is a good one." To which I would add "even better if the aeroplane remains intact."
If our hero has learned from this scary experience, he should be a better pilot for it.
,
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 18th Jul 2014 at 00:51.
