Quality of newbies
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Location: Looking forward to returning to Japan soon but in the meantime continuing the never ending search for a bad bottle of Red!
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Luke Sky Toddler; Whilst I concede that you've been around for long enough to know that of which you speak, and indeed I agree with your comment that Employers should pay their Pilots properly, I really think that you should stop and ponder that in some regards perhaps the OP has a valid point!
ie; That possibly; Note, Possibly, some of the fresh CPL holders are entering or attempting to enter the Industry with a somewhat unrealistic opinion of what to expect for their first few years.
For instance; You are rostered to fly at, say 'O dark hundred' ie be taxiing out at first light. When would you recommend they turn up at the Flight office? (I'll give you a hint; At DZ or Simbu in Port Morbid it was two hours before first light!
)
Oh, and you had already been to the briefing/met office and lodged your plans for the morning!
And your shirt always appeared to be freshly ironed (it was) even though the Haus Boi (or Meri) had done it the previous day.
We were still expected to leave the Pilots room clean. ie We emptied the cigarette ash tray and washed our own coffee mugs!
Stacked neatly any empty coca cola bottles in a crate etc. Not left them laying about anywhere.
If we were ever rude or abrupt to any of the clients, villagers etc, we soon found out that such behaviour was not acceptable! (Hell, I was always on my best behaviour or so I thought, until the Boss once let it drop that we all recieved at least three death threats per week!)
And the 'Ginger Beer' was your Saviour, Fairy Godmother, Friend and Protector all rolled into one!! Piss him off at your peril!
And finally; The Chief Pilot was Der Fuhrer! He and he alone decided when you got the promotion to the higher class of Aircraft. And you never asked about it!
(In Simbu's case it was a well used but reliable 'A' mod 402. And I loved flying it!!
)
End of (Red fuelled) rant
Sorry 50 50, Whilst I would agree with your first and second sentence, and obviously the summary of the third, I honestly doubt that such a scenario could be found in any successful flying schools today. If I am wrong please enlighten me.
ie; That possibly; Note, Possibly, some of the fresh CPL holders are entering or attempting to enter the Industry with a somewhat unrealistic opinion of what to expect for their first few years.
For instance; You are rostered to fly at, say 'O dark hundred' ie be taxiing out at first light. When would you recommend they turn up at the Flight office? (I'll give you a hint; At DZ or Simbu in Port Morbid it was two hours before first light!
) Oh, and you had already been to the briefing/met office and lodged your plans for the morning!
And your shirt always appeared to be freshly ironed (it was) even though the Haus Boi (or Meri) had done it the previous day.
We were still expected to leave the Pilots room clean. ie We emptied the cigarette ash tray and washed our own coffee mugs!
Stacked neatly any empty coca cola bottles in a crate etc. Not left them laying about anywhere.
If we were ever rude or abrupt to any of the clients, villagers etc, we soon found out that such behaviour was not acceptable! (Hell, I was always on my best behaviour or so I thought, until the Boss once let it drop that we all recieved at least three death threats per week!
)And the 'Ginger Beer' was your Saviour, Fairy Godmother, Friend and Protector all rolled into one!! Piss him off at your peril!
And finally; The Chief Pilot was Der Fuhrer!
He and he alone decided when you got the promotion to the higher class of Aircraft. And you never asked about it! (In Simbu's case it was a well used but reliable 'A' mod 402. And I loved flying it!!) End of (Red fuelled) rant
The days of students being subservient to arrogant egocentric old men that just want to be fawned over are long gone. If you do a crap job training people you will end up with crap pilots. Simple. Don't count the money and then complain about it.
Last edited by Pinky the pilot; 16th Jul 2014 at 13:34. Reason: addition/clarification
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Pinky, what you say is correct, but how many unsuccessful flying schools are out there that take people's money, and haven't quite fallen over yet?
But bravo on the red. Nice to see not everyone is a beer swilling troglodyte.
But bravo on the red. Nice to see not everyone is a beer swilling troglodyte.
Last edited by 50 50; 16th Jul 2014 at 12:35.
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Yes Pinky my point wasn't so much whether the OP had a point with regard to modern kids, I just found a delicious irony in the fact that GA employers, having spent the last several decades creating and benefiting from this ridiculous system where young pilots get paid nothing or next-to-nothing, are now crying over falling standards.
Because of the tremendously high hours requirement that Australian airlines have historically had, and GA has been the only place where young up-and-comers can get those hours, the GA employers have for a very long time been artificially shielded from the principle of pay-peanuts-get-monkeys. We all had no choice but to bend over and take it in order to get those precious first couple of thousand hours in the logbook.
The game has changed a lot in the last decade with the Jetstar cadetships etc and I would contend that GA hours have come to be seen as less valuable than they once were. On that basis, the bargain of mutual exploitation between GA employers and up-and-coming pilots, is a lot less attractive all of a sudden.
If I was a clued up school leaving kid with an interest in piloting these days, I'd look at the ridiculous price of training, the state of the industry, ask when's the last time Qantas hired and realistically what are my chances, pretty much zero, ok then what are my alternatives i.e. low cost airlines, what do they pay, how much debt am I going to take on, how much crap am I going to have to go through and for how long in order to get to where I want to be, I'd do a risk vs cost vs benefit analysis on the whole thing ... then I'd walk away and do a law degree. It's that bad. I really believe a lot of potentially good young pilots are coming to that same conclusion now.
For what it's worth I don't even believe there's such a thing as "generation Y". There may indeed be a certain percentage of lazy spoon-fed self entitled brats out there, but there is certainly also plenty of excellent, clued up, hard working young folk as well. Same as it always was. The question really should be what can we as an industry do to ensure that when these kids are leaving school and choosing their careers, we get less of the type A's and more of the type B's?
Because of the tremendously high hours requirement that Australian airlines have historically had, and GA has been the only place where young up-and-comers can get those hours, the GA employers have for a very long time been artificially shielded from the principle of pay-peanuts-get-monkeys. We all had no choice but to bend over and take it in order to get those precious first couple of thousand hours in the logbook.
The game has changed a lot in the last decade with the Jetstar cadetships etc and I would contend that GA hours have come to be seen as less valuable than they once were. On that basis, the bargain of mutual exploitation between GA employers and up-and-coming pilots, is a lot less attractive all of a sudden.
If I was a clued up school leaving kid with an interest in piloting these days, I'd look at the ridiculous price of training, the state of the industry, ask when's the last time Qantas hired and realistically what are my chances, pretty much zero, ok then what are my alternatives i.e. low cost airlines, what do they pay, how much debt am I going to take on, how much crap am I going to have to go through and for how long in order to get to where I want to be, I'd do a risk vs cost vs benefit analysis on the whole thing ... then I'd walk away and do a law degree. It's that bad. I really believe a lot of potentially good young pilots are coming to that same conclusion now.
For what it's worth I don't even believe there's such a thing as "generation Y". There may indeed be a certain percentage of lazy spoon-fed self entitled brats out there, but there is certainly also plenty of excellent, clued up, hard working young folk as well. Same as it always was. The question really should be what can we as an industry do to ensure that when these kids are leaving school and choosing their careers, we get less of the type A's and more of the type B's?
Luke speaks a lot of truth.
FWIW I don't think standards have dropped in the last 20 years that I have been here, I think they have been about the same, but give CASA some credit for introducing competency based training, even though I still get student files from other schools who haven't adopted it yet..!
I only do the occasional (non intergrated) CPL and if they aren't up to scratch then I tell them so. The job market is skewed enough with all the people getting "free flying" ie fee-help.
These days I don't employ any Grade Threes either as the few schools that turned out great instructors have gone and even though I've got 25 years as a CFI I'm not approved to do instructor training unless I go and do 250 hours of it for someone else first. (Also as soon as they get to Grade Two they are poached by the international schools so all that mentoring is a waste of time)
So that is part of the problem, CASA brought in that arbitrary number of hours to be CFI of an instructor school a few years back and stopped some career instructors like me from being allowed to train the next generation of instructors. Hopefully that will change with Part 61.
FWIW I don't think standards have dropped in the last 20 years that I have been here, I think they have been about the same, but give CASA some credit for introducing competency based training, even though I still get student files from other schools who haven't adopted it yet..!
I only do the occasional (non intergrated) CPL and if they aren't up to scratch then I tell them so. The job market is skewed enough with all the people getting "free flying" ie fee-help.
These days I don't employ any Grade Threes either as the few schools that turned out great instructors have gone and even though I've got 25 years as a CFI I'm not approved to do instructor training unless I go and do 250 hours of it for someone else first. (Also as soon as they get to Grade Two they are poached by the international schools so all that mentoring is a waste of time)
So that is part of the problem, CASA brought in that arbitrary number of hours to be CFI of an instructor school a few years back and stopped some career instructors like me from being allowed to train the next generation of instructors. Hopefully that will change with Part 61.
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Clare, I'll be on to you when I retire from the airlines and go back to my roots with a Gr 3 IR.
A long time ago, there were still the spivs and rip-off merchant employers. Plenty of people did pay for flying, too. Aviation has always been expensive and this has represented a barrier to employment.
Since 2001, there has been a change in employment practices at the airline end of the game: Virgin, Jetstar and Tiger want you to pay for entry into your job. There are no shortage of applicants, so this is the new industry standard.
In the days of the Two Airlines Policy, the companies paid good terms and conditions. However, industrial laws allowed the application of a "2 chances and you're out" policy for those who struggled to check to line. Contemporary Employment law means that re-training, counselling, time off, assistance, learner support, choice of trainers and checkers, etc, must all be offered to those who in previous days would have been culled earlier.
Aviation has always been full of those who think that they were Ace of the Base, Top Gun types who had Mummy and Daddy pay for their flying, pull strings, subsidise, support and otherwise bank-roll every thing that they did in life. You think that these guys didn't have an overblown sense of self-worth? Many of them made me wanna puke!
The bottom line is that the airlines had pretty good recruitment strategies and could be more selective. They could pick and choose from a pool of GA pilots and vet them rigorously. Recommendations from 'mates' (ie: Virgin's 'Blue Star' policy of jobs for mates-and then people at Virgin wonder about nepotism when the whole recruitment methodology of the time was founded on exactly that!). If they didn't cut the mustard they were out the door.
Aviation these days doesn't offer the income, glamour, security, life-style that once made it competitive with other industries. Additionally, there are more aircraft flying around that need to be crewed. Got 2 arms, legs and a head? Have you every knowingly killed a public official? Great, you're hired!
A long time ago, there were still the spivs and rip-off merchant employers. Plenty of people did pay for flying, too. Aviation has always been expensive and this has represented a barrier to employment.
Since 2001, there has been a change in employment practices at the airline end of the game: Virgin, Jetstar and Tiger want you to pay for entry into your job. There are no shortage of applicants, so this is the new industry standard.
In the days of the Two Airlines Policy, the companies paid good terms and conditions. However, industrial laws allowed the application of a "2 chances and you're out" policy for those who struggled to check to line. Contemporary Employment law means that re-training, counselling, time off, assistance, learner support, choice of trainers and checkers, etc, must all be offered to those who in previous days would have been culled earlier.
Aviation has always been full of those who think that they were Ace of the Base, Top Gun types who had Mummy and Daddy pay for their flying, pull strings, subsidise, support and otherwise bank-roll every thing that they did in life. You think that these guys didn't have an overblown sense of self-worth? Many of them made me wanna puke!
The bottom line is that the airlines had pretty good recruitment strategies and could be more selective. They could pick and choose from a pool of GA pilots and vet them rigorously. Recommendations from 'mates' (ie: Virgin's 'Blue Star' policy of jobs for mates-and then people at Virgin wonder about nepotism when the whole recruitment methodology of the time was founded on exactly that!). If they didn't cut the mustard they were out the door.
Aviation these days doesn't offer the income, glamour, security, life-style that once made it competitive with other industries. Additionally, there are more aircraft flying around that need to be crewed. Got 2 arms, legs and a head? Have you every knowingly killed a public official? Great, you're hired!
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I just found a delicious irony in the fact that GA employers, having spent the last several decades creating and benefiting from this ridiculous system where young pilots get paid nothing or next-to-nothing, are now crying over falling standards.
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Lee_apromise, Luke SkyToddler, I will bite if that's what you want. As I don't put every new pilot or training org in a box, please don't put all employers in a box. As in every industry there is the good and the bad. I am very sorry you encountered the bad. These are the same ba...tads that undercut us, lie to get contracts and leave the industry owing money to all and an industry with a bad image.
There are a lot of us plodders out there that don't deserve this sort of abuse.
The reason I started this post was, because I, like a lot of others that get see a lot of newbies a year, are concerned at the general decay of standards that could lead to a serious decline in safety in the future. It is caused by a percentage of the training industry but not all. Good well trained pilots do still show up, so this proves that it is a decline in pride in turning out a good product. Something needs to be done to arrest this decline and kick it in the pants before we start to see a rise in the GA accident rate.
I love this industry and the work we do. Pilots are at the face of our industry and as such, their skills are what keeps GA operators profitable.
As an owner, it is in our interest to keep our employees, so why wouldn't I pay the award or better. That's what the award is for to make sure no one gets ripped off. If you do, don't bitch here take it to fair work.
We spend a lot of time and frustration getting newbies to a commercial standard. It's a great feeling to see a pilot outgrow us and walk into a new job ahead of a lot of others.
We employ newbies because of seasonal work and yes it is rewarding watching a new pilot grow in confidence and skills and become part of team. I won't lie we want the best, that is due to the fact that it takes a while to get a second rate pilot to a place that their skills are cost effective. It also hurts to have to let them go at the end of the season due to lack of work, but good to see most want to come back the next year.
Sad part of life, that in any industry you have to have bean counters to stay in business. As a manager you have to look at things like gross margins, profit margins, efficiency, etc. Two things that I don't like to skimp on is wages and maintiance, so that means operations have to be very efficient, you count every minute in the air. And are those minutes starting to get expensive. Good pilots understand this fact. That's what keeps a pilot or any other employee in work in any other industry. Business means, planes to pay for, money needs to set aside for engine and prop replacement. We need money for a refurb in three years for this or that aircraft. We have to worry will john down the road undercut us for the next contract. How will CASA's latest changes effect our operations. Etc etc.
At the end of the day we pay a pilot a good wage in return we are getting second rate pilots that through no fault of there own have been sold a lemon. Don't we have aright to expect a certain standard of training as the norm not the exception.
I think you forget like you we still have a family to feed and kids to educate. Not many of us long term plodders drive Mercedes or have an apartment on the Gold Coast. We live in the back of beyond because we like it. So before you raise the red flag and call all employers as****les spare a thought for all those mum and dad out fits just trying to provide a service and survive. I think from CASA latest statistics that there is something like over 700 operators out there with 5 or less aircraft that would also have been offended by your views.
MS
There are a lot of us plodders out there that don't deserve this sort of abuse.
The reason I started this post was, because I, like a lot of others that get see a lot of newbies a year, are concerned at the general decay of standards that could lead to a serious decline in safety in the future. It is caused by a percentage of the training industry but not all. Good well trained pilots do still show up, so this proves that it is a decline in pride in turning out a good product. Something needs to be done to arrest this decline and kick it in the pants before we start to see a rise in the GA accident rate.
I love this industry and the work we do. Pilots are at the face of our industry and as such, their skills are what keeps GA operators profitable.
As an owner, it is in our interest to keep our employees, so why wouldn't I pay the award or better. That's what the award is for to make sure no one gets ripped off. If you do, don't bitch here take it to fair work.
We spend a lot of time and frustration getting newbies to a commercial standard. It's a great feeling to see a pilot outgrow us and walk into a new job ahead of a lot of others.
We employ newbies because of seasonal work and yes it is rewarding watching a new pilot grow in confidence and skills and become part of team. I won't lie we want the best, that is due to the fact that it takes a while to get a second rate pilot to a place that their skills are cost effective. It also hurts to have to let them go at the end of the season due to lack of work, but good to see most want to come back the next year.
Sad part of life, that in any industry you have to have bean counters to stay in business. As a manager you have to look at things like gross margins, profit margins, efficiency, etc. Two things that I don't like to skimp on is wages and maintiance, so that means operations have to be very efficient, you count every minute in the air. And are those minutes starting to get expensive. Good pilots understand this fact. That's what keeps a pilot or any other employee in work in any other industry. Business means, planes to pay for, money needs to set aside for engine and prop replacement. We need money for a refurb in three years for this or that aircraft. We have to worry will john down the road undercut us for the next contract. How will CASA's latest changes effect our operations. Etc etc.
At the end of the day we pay a pilot a good wage in return we are getting second rate pilots that through no fault of there own have been sold a lemon. Don't we have aright to expect a certain standard of training as the norm not the exception.
I think you forget like you we still have a family to feed and kids to educate. Not many of us long term plodders drive Mercedes or have an apartment on the Gold Coast. We live in the back of beyond because we like it. So before you raise the red flag and call all employers as****les spare a thought for all those mum and dad out fits just trying to provide a service and survive. I think from CASA latest statistics that there is something like over 700 operators out there with 5 or less aircraft that would also have been offended by your views.
MS
Mick Stuped wrote:
"Not many of us long term plodders drive Mercedes or have an apartment on the Gold Coast."
Perhaps so but you do have a very welcoming pub! And that's why a couple of V35 flyers drop in from time to time...
"Not many of us long term plodders drive Mercedes or have an apartment on the Gold Coast."
Perhaps so but you do have a very welcoming pub! And that's why a couple of V35 flyers drop in from time to time...
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Perspective from the peanut gallery
Speaking as someone who is not quite yet even one of the Newbies being referred to...
As I drag my way painfully slowly through my training at my own (laboriously accumulated) expense, a couple of things occur to me:
1) I hope - when I have earned my shiny new CPL and the couple of endorsements that make it remotely useful - that I manage to find myself with a genuine employer such as Mick. One willing not just to give a Noob a chance, but to pay that Noob enough that it may survive, and perhaps even more importantly
2) I hope (scratch that, I INTEND) to be good enough to deserve that chance.
Perhaps that makes me entirely naive, but there we are.
As I drag my way painfully slowly through my training at my own (laboriously accumulated) expense, a couple of things occur to me:
1) I hope - when I have earned my shiny new CPL and the couple of endorsements that make it remotely useful - that I manage to find myself with a genuine employer such as Mick. One willing not just to give a Noob a chance, but to pay that Noob enough that it may survive, and perhaps even more importantly
2) I hope (scratch that, I INTEND) to be good enough to deserve that chance.
Perhaps that makes me entirely naive, but there we are.
Having completed training relatively recently I have no doubt that (good) operators are having to polish newbies a lot before letting them loose. I think the training is too much a tick box exercise, possibly since we have moved to a competency based system?
I remember when I did my first diversion (due to a wheels up at destination). It all worked out and wasn't a big deal but I remember clearly thinking at the end of the day "Holy crap that unfolded nothing like the diversions we practiced every flight during training". I was discussing it with a friend who had gone down the instructing route and we decided it wouldn't be hard to make the diversion scenarios more realistic... but it would take more effort from the instructor.
I remember when I did my first diversion (due to a wheels up at destination). It all worked out and wasn't a big deal but I remember clearly thinking at the end of the day "Holy crap that unfolded nothing like the diversions we practiced every flight during training". I was discussing it with a friend who had gone down the instructing route and we decided it wouldn't be hard to make the diversion scenarios more realistic... but it would take more effort from the instructor.
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Gerry, sorry but don't own a pub, however think I have paid for a few over time.
Out of respect for my kidneys owning a pub and a Air Charter business are two things that wouldn't work well together.
MS
Out of respect for my kidneys owning a pub and a Air Charter business are two things that wouldn't work well together.
MS
Mick and oak ape, well said. I know Luke has a lot of experience in the industry but we are not all bad. I have always paid my instructors the award and been proud of them when they have moved on to bigger things.
Agreed it is the bad guys especially the ones who do the sham contracting who make thing harder for us plodders who do all the right things with tax, super, compo etc. Sadly now the industry is such that I only have one casual instructor and do absolutely everything else myself. Can't trust anyone, young or old, to even run the front desk these days. And have got better gross margins than ever.
Agreed it is the bad guys especially the ones who do the sham contracting who make thing harder for us plodders who do all the right things with tax, super, compo etc. Sadly now the industry is such that I only have one casual instructor and do absolutely everything else myself. Can't trust anyone, young or old, to even run the front desk these days. And have got better gross margins than ever.
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Mick, I'm sure you're a top bloke and I'm sure you're not a closet millionaire either.
But the fact of the matter is that the business model that you and ALL those other 700 "mum and dad operators" all rely on, and have been relying on since forever, only works by paying your pilots S.F.A. Most employers know it, some of them even feel bad about it sometimes and buy the boys a few extra beers on a friday, but at the end of the day nothing will change because they're all scared about
And he's probably worrying the same thing about you.
At the end of the day the vast majority of young pilots, whether they're good guys or idiots, all have one thing in common, they aren't there by choice, they will be out of there like a rat up a drainpipe once they get the golden phone call from an airline. Fine you say, I accept that, the guys are getting their hours, I know they will move on after a couple of seasons to better things and I wish them all the best.
In a word, no. As long as you're paying your guys a few bucks an hour or or $30 grand a year or whatever it is, you absolutely do not have the right to expect that the guys in the schools will cater their training to YOUR wants and needs. Most of them are in hock to the tune of $100 grand plus and the only way they have any chance of paying that back is to get their ass into the airlines as soon as humanly possible. Even then these days, it's a bit doubtful, but that's another story 
But anyway the point is, 99.9% of guys are going to cater their training to what is going to look good on an airline CV or get them through a sim check with minimum fuss. The least thing they care about is VFR map reading or short field grass strip takeoffs. Training for GA and training for airlines is a very very different beast these days.
If you've got specific needs of a pilot and you can't get what you want in the marketplace then as I see it your options are either take on an untrained guy, suck it up and train him to your standards, or poach someone else's guys. Either way it's going to cost you money. Well then mate I'm sorry but cry me a river, welcome to the real world of employment competition. Don't blame the schools or the student pilots for it.
To be honest I hope the trend continues, until the collective GA realizes it's actually more economical to pay people to make a CAREER out of it instead of constantly losing guys to the airlines, and pays and trains accordingly.
But the fact of the matter is that the business model that you and ALL those other 700 "mum and dad operators" all rely on, and have been relying on since forever, only works by paying your pilots S.F.A. Most employers know it, some of them even feel bad about it sometimes and buy the boys a few extra beers on a friday, but at the end of the day nothing will change because they're all scared about
will john down the road undercut us for the next contract.
At the end of the day the vast majority of young pilots, whether they're good guys or idiots, all have one thing in common, they aren't there by choice, they will be out of there like a rat up a drainpipe once they get the golden phone call from an airline. Fine you say, I accept that, the guys are getting their hours, I know they will move on after a couple of seasons to better things and I wish them all the best.
At the end of the day we pay a pilot a good wage in return we are getting second rate pilots that through no fault of there own have been sold a lemon. Don't we have aright to expect a certain standard of training as the norm not the exception.
But anyway the point is, 99.9% of guys are going to cater their training to what is going to look good on an airline CV or get them through a sim check with minimum fuss. The least thing they care about is VFR map reading or short field grass strip takeoffs. Training for GA and training for airlines is a very very different beast these days.
If you've got specific needs of a pilot and you can't get what you want in the marketplace then as I see it your options are either take on an untrained guy, suck it up and train him to your standards, or poach someone else's guys. Either way it's going to cost you money. Well then mate I'm sorry but cry me a river, welcome to the real world of employment competition. Don't blame the schools or the student pilots for it.
To be honest I hope the trend continues, until the collective GA realizes it's actually more economical to pay people to make a CAREER out of it instead of constantly losing guys to the airlines, and pays and trains accordingly.
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Luke, you have been out of GA for a while, last time I paid $30 grand a year for a basic full time line pilot was back in the 90's. You could also run a 206 for $200 and hour.
Have a look at the award line pilot basic wage as of 1st July is $40,470. Then add in a few more grand in allowances especially outback overnight, meals etc and chuck in a district allowance. Takes it to $43,780 plus. Now put on your 9.5% super takes it $47,939 plus. Casuals get better.
Now add to that six weeks leave a year on full pay and RDO's to make sure that only a 38 hour week is worked as per fair work agreements. Don't know I must be the one out of touch as just under $50 grand a year seems a reasonable wage for an apprentice. That's comparable to a second officer in a regional airline. All but one of other operators I know of all pay award. I know because they bitch about it start of each new financial year since the modern award came in.
As for training, we accept the role with gusto. Enjoy training pilots to a commercial standard and watch them move on and upwards, We take exception with having to go back over basic stuff like short field, cross winds and navigation. The newbie has paid for this as part of his training but isn't getting it. Who is getting shafted, not only us.
Wonder why all of a sudden operators are asking for higher minims for a start. Its because they are in hope that a few more hours, they will have mastered the basics. Its like a carpenter employing a newly qualified carpenter that doesn't know how to use a hammer. Basic standards in any industry have to apply, why not Aviation?
MS
Have a look at the award line pilot basic wage as of 1st July is $40,470. Then add in a few more grand in allowances especially outback overnight, meals etc and chuck in a district allowance. Takes it to $43,780 plus. Now put on your 9.5% super takes it $47,939 plus. Casuals get better.
Now add to that six weeks leave a year on full pay and RDO's to make sure that only a 38 hour week is worked as per fair work agreements. Don't know I must be the one out of touch as just under $50 grand a year seems a reasonable wage for an apprentice. That's comparable to a second officer in a regional airline. All but one of other operators I know of all pay award. I know because they bitch about it start of each new financial year since the modern award came in.
As for training, we accept the role with gusto. Enjoy training pilots to a commercial standard and watch them move on and upwards, We take exception with having to go back over basic stuff like short field, cross winds and navigation. The newbie has paid for this as part of his training but isn't getting it. Who is getting shafted, not only us.
Wonder why all of a sudden operators are asking for higher minims for a start. Its because they are in hope that a few more hours, they will have mastered the basics. Its like a carpenter employing a newly qualified carpenter that doesn't know how to use a hammer. Basic standards in any industry have to apply, why not Aviation?
MS
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Mike, sign me up. I earned less in Indonesia flying a turboprop than what you paid for those 150hrs newbie.
I'd love to get my arse back to Aust and do some flying there. Can I fly on CASA validation based on my FAA?
Apparently conversion costs too much money.
I'd love to get my arse back to Aust and do some flying there. Can I fly on CASA validation based on my FAA?
Apparently conversion costs too much money.
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Yeah wow, $47,000, that's up there, gee, that's almost half what my school dropout teenage nephew makes as a building site labourer pouring concrete in Karratha
Supply and demand, that's all it comes down to. And like it or not mate it's going to affect YOU sooner or later - or rather it looks like it's doing it already. The entire industry is just rooted and has been for too long.
It's a strange time to be living in Australia that is for sure.
Supply and demand, that's all it comes down to. And like it or not mate it's going to affect YOU sooner or later - or rather it looks like it's doing it already. The entire industry is just rooted and has been for too long.
It's a strange time to be living in Australia that is for sure.
Mick,
Please don't take this the wrong way, I am in 100% agreement that the quality of training from many flight schools is shocking and it sounds like you run a great company that would be a pleasure to work for. I am enjoying reading your perspective, essentially sitting on the other side of the industry to me. With that in mind I want to discuss your comment:
Firstly, is in general $50k a year a lot of money? No, not when you are living in places like Broome or Darwin where rent is $200 + bills a week, food is more expensive, fuel is more expensive, any sort of 'bonus' expenses like car parts are almost twice as much as in the city. Let alone it's at least $1,000 to get return flights back home once a year before we take into account spending any money there. Compare that to full time jobs my friends are doing in Sydney, some needing professional qualifications (eg; paralegals) others not needing qualifications (eg; call centre). It's around par.
Secondly, is a commercial pilot an apprentice? I'd argue no. Please understand, I'm not some hot shot newbie who thinks I know everything. I learnt a lot in my first 150 hours skydiving, then learnt a lot during my first ICUS upon joining a charter company. And learnt a lot bashing a 210 around by myself for hundreds of hours. But the key there is by myself. I'm legally qualified to do as much in a 210 as a 20 year airline captain. To me it's not an apprentice wage but a wage for a qualified professional. Again we are in agreement the 'qualification' new pilots are getting these days may not be up to 'professional' standards but I don't think we should be reducing the wage rather increasing the training standards in this industry.
My point is if there is a cause to be taken up here, I don't think it should be that pilots (at any level) are over paid. It should be that the training syllabus is failing our students. I posted earlier about my first diversion as a charter pilot and realising it was totally different to anything I did in training. Don't even get me started on places like Swinburne that put Airline Cadets and normal students through almost exactly the same training, despite them having very different first jobs. If a passionate person got the reins in CASA, I don't think it would take much to tweak the syllabus. Make the commercial syllabus especially include more 'real world scenarios'. We can even have a buzz word for it to keep the bureaucrats happy "industry relevant training".
Please don't take this the wrong way, I am in 100% agreement that the quality of training from many flight schools is shocking and it sounds like you run a great company that would be a pleasure to work for. I am enjoying reading your perspective, essentially sitting on the other side of the industry to me. With that in mind I want to discuss your comment:
Don't know I must be the one out of touch as just under $50 grand a year seems a reasonable wage for an apprentice.
Secondly, is a commercial pilot an apprentice? I'd argue no. Please understand, I'm not some hot shot newbie who thinks I know everything. I learnt a lot in my first 150 hours skydiving, then learnt a lot during my first ICUS upon joining a charter company. And learnt a lot bashing a 210 around by myself for hundreds of hours. But the key there is by myself. I'm legally qualified to do as much in a 210 as a 20 year airline captain. To me it's not an apprentice wage but a wage for a qualified professional. Again we are in agreement the 'qualification' new pilots are getting these days may not be up to 'professional' standards but I don't think we should be reducing the wage rather increasing the training standards in this industry.
My point is if there is a cause to be taken up here, I don't think it should be that pilots (at any level) are over paid. It should be that the training syllabus is failing our students. I posted earlier about my first diversion as a charter pilot and realising it was totally different to anything I did in training. Don't even get me started on places like Swinburne that put Airline Cadets and normal students through almost exactly the same training, despite them having very different first jobs. If a passionate person got the reins in CASA, I don't think it would take much to tweak the syllabus. Make the commercial syllabus especially include more 'real world scenarios'. We can even have a buzz word for it to keep the bureaucrats happy "industry relevant training".
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Mcgrath50, agree with what you say. However really single engine charter work, really is an apprenticeship given that so many think of this style of flying is only a step to the regionals and the big boys and they better money. The days of a pilot wanting to make a career out of charter work because they love basic bush work and flying is gone. You can argue it is because the pay is crap, and no one wants to live in isolated areas. Well it is very much a chicken or the egg argument. There are people like I who love this lifestyle and the isolation from the hectic hustle and bustle of the big city. You can live cheap in the bush, but not in big regional mining centres, as there isn't anything to spend it on apart from a few beers and Barbecue on the weekends.
At the end of the day market forces dictate the future. We in GA are also getting screwed. We cannot rely on a RPT route that has set departures and can budget on projected loadings. To a certain extent, unless we have contracts to supply a service, we have to rely on someone walking in wanting to charter the whole aircraft to go somewhere.
If they don't walk in or feel that it's cheaper to drive we sit and panic mortgage the house and hope it will turn around. Meanwhile our pilots and staff still get paid, usually I don't. The cost of just having a company sitting is getting horrendous.
The other problem is if we put our prices up our flight hours decline as companies, clients can no longer justify the cost of a flight. The publics perception of aviation has changed. The low cost carriers has driven a value into the travelling publics head. The most common question that is asked is why are you so expensive, I can fly from Darwin to Bali, for half the price you are charging.
I don't expect sympathy, I choose to live in the bush and run a business with the best available tools and resources, and at the end of the day my tale is that of any small business battling to survive in tight times. Rising costs, ageing aircraft, decline in the quality of personnel and reducing income.
I do get angry that some out there think that all GA operators are tight fisted Scrooges getting fat on the back of the hard graft of the underpaid worker. In 95 percent of the cases I have found, we are hard working passionate people that love to fly and enjoy watching and teaching others to do the same.
MS
At the end of the day market forces dictate the future. We in GA are also getting screwed. We cannot rely on a RPT route that has set departures and can budget on projected loadings. To a certain extent, unless we have contracts to supply a service, we have to rely on someone walking in wanting to charter the whole aircraft to go somewhere.
If they don't walk in or feel that it's cheaper to drive we sit and panic mortgage the house and hope it will turn around. Meanwhile our pilots and staff still get paid, usually I don't. The cost of just having a company sitting is getting horrendous.
The other problem is if we put our prices up our flight hours decline as companies, clients can no longer justify the cost of a flight. The publics perception of aviation has changed. The low cost carriers has driven a value into the travelling publics head. The most common question that is asked is why are you so expensive, I can fly from Darwin to Bali, for half the price you are charging.
I don't expect sympathy, I choose to live in the bush and run a business with the best available tools and resources, and at the end of the day my tale is that of any small business battling to survive in tight times. Rising costs, ageing aircraft, decline in the quality of personnel and reducing income.
I do get angry that some out there think that all GA operators are tight fisted Scrooges getting fat on the back of the hard graft of the underpaid worker. In 95 percent of the cases I have found, we are hard working passionate people that love to fly and enjoy watching and teaching others to do the same.
MS