Quality of newbies
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Yep..Wellington..expecting a rough ride..got it too. There are numerous variants of king air too. assumptions assumptions.
va 169..at the point in the descent..about 7,000ft.
you guys crack me up.
va 169..at the point in the descent..about 7,000ft.
you guys crack me up.
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Just remember people like me were patrolling the streets at night while you were nicely tucked up in bed with your little blanket.
Who cares about age, I made the choice to learn how to fly. I enjoy and absolutely love what I do now. Yep still learning everyday..not only with flying. You had to start somewhere, even crosswind landings.
Who cares about age, I made the choice to learn how to fly. I enjoy and absolutely love what I do now. Yep still learning everyday..not only with flying. You had to start somewhere, even crosswind landings.
How about you go and start a Kingair thread??
Meanwhile this is my 2C...I came here with a UK CPL and instructor rating and a fair bit of experience flying charter and instructing in all kinds of weather and aircraft in Europe. I went to do my conversion at sausage factory "x".
First I was amazed that the ONLY barrier to entry to the CPL course was the amount of money a student had to spend. There was nil evaluation of their skills nor competition for places on the CPL or instructor courses prior to commencing, other than wanting to look cool with epaulettes on and being able to snigger behind students' backs.
As I chuckled at the old wives tales being taught as "fact", I realised that most of these people would never have got within cooee of a course in the UK let alone qualified. And yet, there they were, signing up fuglies who had just done an intro flight and wanted to look cool in epaulettes too, for a "150 hour CPL course" with no idea if this person would be suitable, living in their little incompetent arrogant bubbles, effectively cloning themselves.
What I observed was a very very thin veneer of knowledge, just enough to scrape through the absolute lowest standard that the in house examiner would accept. That was over 20 years ago and things are worse now than they were then.
The instructor rating needs to be completely overhauled and all in-house testing needs to be abolished. Then we might see some improvement in standards.
Meanwhile this is my 2C...I came here with a UK CPL and instructor rating and a fair bit of experience flying charter and instructing in all kinds of weather and aircraft in Europe. I went to do my conversion at sausage factory "x".
First I was amazed that the ONLY barrier to entry to the CPL course was the amount of money a student had to spend. There was nil evaluation of their skills nor competition for places on the CPL or instructor courses prior to commencing, other than wanting to look cool with epaulettes on and being able to snigger behind students' backs.
As I chuckled at the old wives tales being taught as "fact", I realised that most of these people would never have got within cooee of a course in the UK let alone qualified. And yet, there they were, signing up fuglies who had just done an intro flight and wanted to look cool in epaulettes too, for a "150 hour CPL course" with no idea if this person would be suitable, living in their little incompetent arrogant bubbles, effectively cloning themselves.
What I observed was a very very thin veneer of knowledge, just enough to scrape through the absolute lowest standard that the in house examiner would accept. That was over 20 years ago and things are worse now than they were then.
The instructor rating needs to be completely overhauled and all in-house testing needs to be abolished. Then we might see some improvement in standards.
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Clare Prop,
"The instructor rating needs to be completely overhauled and all in-house testing needs to be abolished. Then we might see some improvement in standards."
funny you say that..the CAA in NZ has just come out and said the same thing at a seminar. More along the lines of entry into the courses and examination against a students own training history, both flight and written tests.
Do you think it is the introduction of so much technology into the cockpit, albeit rather cheaply, that has contributed to the dropping of standards?
"The instructor rating needs to be completely overhauled and all in-house testing needs to be abolished. Then we might see some improvement in standards."
funny you say that..the CAA in NZ has just come out and said the same thing at a seminar. More along the lines of entry into the courses and examination against a students own training history, both flight and written tests.
Do you think it is the introduction of so much technology into the cockpit, albeit rather cheaply, that has contributed to the dropping of standards?
Not really...I just noticed the huge discrepancy in standards and depth of training between the UK and Australia at the instructor level,it was the old Cessna/Piper hardware then and still is.
No,not technology, whether the instruments are round and black and white or technicolour and on an iPad the fact is there is no aptitude testing for the job prior to training and no competency based training or testing for instructors. SOME HAVE NEVER SEEN THE DAY VFR SYLLABUS and look blankly if I ask them to define the syllabus definition of "enter and recover from stall". They don't know how to write up records, they don't know their legal or ethical obligations, there is so much more than just colourful briefings and greaser landings from the RHS. But why should they know when CASA doesn't require them to and the flight test form makes no reference to it? They don't want to pay the extra that some schools charge to teach them stuff they actually need to know. They just want to wear that uniform.
And mutual pratice?? WTF is that all about? These people should be role playing with someone who has been teaching for thousands of hours and can present real scenarios they have experienced, not sit there drilling holes in the sky with one of their mates who probably only has the absolute bare minimum hours as well.
No,not technology, whether the instruments are round and black and white or technicolour and on an iPad the fact is there is no aptitude testing for the job prior to training and no competency based training or testing for instructors. SOME HAVE NEVER SEEN THE DAY VFR SYLLABUS and look blankly if I ask them to define the syllabus definition of "enter and recover from stall". They don't know how to write up records, they don't know their legal or ethical obligations, there is so much more than just colourful briefings and greaser landings from the RHS. But why should they know when CASA doesn't require them to and the flight test form makes no reference to it? They don't want to pay the extra that some schools charge to teach them stuff they actually need to know. They just want to wear that uniform.
And mutual pratice?? WTF is that all about? These people should be role playing with someone who has been teaching for thousands of hours and can present real scenarios they have experienced, not sit there drilling holes in the sky with one of their mates who probably only has the absolute bare minimum hours as well.
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Clare Prop, that explains why we see what we are. It is as we suspect the trainers not the trainees. However agree that some trainees need to sort out in their heads why they want to be pilots as the real world is usually worlds apart from the stereotype.
The fact that we get the occasional excellent well trained newbie, tells me that some orgs still do a good job and have a good CFI with a firm grip on the reins. Sadly though they are in the minority, but they don't go unnoticed.
MS
The fact that we get the occasional excellent well trained newbie, tells me that some orgs still do a good job and have a good CFI with a firm grip on the reins. Sadly though they are in the minority, but they don't go unnoticed.
MS
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King Air = pressurised turbo prop
Pressurised turbo prop = increased operating altitudes
Increased operating altitudes = increased difference between IAS/TAS
For that type of aircraft people generally talk about speeds in terms of TAS hence the questions. 180kts IAS does not necessarily equate to 180kts TAS (or GS for that matter) and therefore if you are only thinking at 180kts you might be quite uncomfortably behind the aeroplane - especially on descent...!
Anyway you probably get the drift by now...!
Pressurised turbo prop = increased operating altitudes
Increased operating altitudes = increased difference between IAS/TAS
For that type of aircraft people generally talk about speeds in terms of TAS hence the questions. 180kts IAS does not necessarily equate to 180kts TAS (or GS for that matter) and therefore if you are only thinking at 180kts you might be quite uncomfortably behind the aeroplane - especially on descent...!
Anyway you probably get the drift by now...!
Perhaps these newbies, like myself, were told that they were doing an exceptional job by their very inexperienced instructors, who were only parroting the crap from their twit of a chief pilot.
I see and hear people in the bush (and at major airports) doing and saying things that make me wonder how they ever got a licence. Mind you, we don't have Russ Evans doing CPL tests anymore, so maybe like the Reason model it is a combination of many lapses and latent failures.
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You guys want standards?? Join the Air Force.. They are still teaching a high standard...
unfortunately, a some of the students cant handle the criticism, and go where they will be told they are the best no matter what. even after they crash an aircraft through poor planning, and others are more concerned with just getting a licence than actually learning to fly. and see the small difference in price as the major factor in their training..
after reading through the incident reports recently, and seeing the atrocious flying recently around the place, i am seriously considering getting back into instructing again to at least try to make an improvement in flying and airmanship standards.
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King Air descent ....
CHECK
SET
ARM
180 KIAS - Torque 15 1600 RPM
Autofeather
CHECK
SET
ARM
180 KIAS - Torque 15 1600 RPM
Autofeather
Descent
When you're ready to begin your descent from cruising altitude, move the prop pitch back to 15 and lower the King Air's nose slightly (reducing your prop pitch decreases the torque and drops the nose so this may not be necessary). If you need to adjust the balance after a few minutes to reduce pressure on control surfaces, trim down a bit. Your airspeed should be about 200 knots until you begin the approach.
Read more : http://www.ehow.com/list_7521165_kin...ding-tips.html
thread drift terminated ....
Last edited by Avgas172; 14th Jul 2014 at 10:53. Reason: Added a bit of Google ...
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Sadly the George Campbell's and Jack Funnell's of the past are gone now,
Those of you who either did their CPL or MEIFR rating with him (and in a smoke filled cockpit
) will know and remember just how exacting his standards were.FWIW, I did my entire Pilot training with him and the CPL part, in old VH-MEP (a Seneca 1
) was not easy. TK made sure it wasn't! I believe most strongly that had he not given me the hard time that he did, I would not have survived half the time I did in PNG. As it was, I nearly did not but that was my fault, not his.
Reading this thread fills me with trepidation, if indeed things are as bad as posted.
Apologies for the thread drift again, but with over 2,000hrs of King Air time, I've never done my descent like that. And plus, bringing your prop RPM back will increase the torque, not decrease it.
B200, targeted barbers pole -10kts into 220kts.
morno
B200, targeted barbers pole -10kts into 220kts.
morno
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How did "Quality of Newbies" turn into "Look how many hours I have on a Kingair"? How many newbies have any Kingair time at all? None.
How any employers will take a 200 hour pilot and put them on a Kingair? None.
If you must wave your penis in the air, paint it on a flag and walk down the street proudly waving it. Or, as suggested, start a "Random arguments about Kingair's" thread.
How any employers will take a 200 hour pilot and put them on a Kingair? None.
If you must wave your penis in the air, paint it on a flag and walk down the street proudly waving it. Or, as suggested, start a "Random arguments about Kingair's" thread.
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Ultralight,please get back into instructing,or at least mentoring. They need the stories.
Just thinking outside the box a bit, but wouldn't it be great if in every capital city a group of old flyers could get together every Friday lunchtime or anytime in a spirit of friendship at a different flight school each week and put on a sausage sizzle and offer their services as mentors, tell stories of the good and the bad and encourage both instructors and students, to think about things like good airmanship and all that that encompasses. These guys and girls need leadership. Or do you think it's to late and that Gen Y won't be told. I do hope not.
Think I have heard of similar not for profit organisations in the states that offer a mentor service to newbies.
Just a thought, there must be so many retired ex aviators out there that are in dismay of the direction of our industry, but have such a wealth of knowledge that could be shared with those that wish to listen.
How about it Dick Smith you must have some ideas if this would be possible. Sure you could help get sponsors to get this up and happening if there was enough support from interested participants.
MS
Just thinking outside the box a bit, but wouldn't it be great if in every capital city a group of old flyers could get together every Friday lunchtime or anytime in a spirit of friendship at a different flight school each week and put on a sausage sizzle and offer their services as mentors, tell stories of the good and the bad and encourage both instructors and students, to think about things like good airmanship and all that that encompasses. These guys and girls need leadership. Or do you think it's to late and that Gen Y won't be told. I do hope not.
Think I have heard of similar not for profit organisations in the states that offer a mentor service to newbies.
Just a thought, there must be so many retired ex aviators out there that are in dismay of the direction of our industry, but have such a wealth of knowledge that could be shared with those that wish to listen.
How about it Dick Smith you must have some ideas if this would be possible. Sure you could help get sponsors to get this up and happening if there was enough support from interested participants.
MS
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some of the students cant handle the criticism
With all due respect Mick, and I dont doubt the problems you face, I think the problem lies a lot deeper than just Gen Y attitudes and stick and rudder issues.
Ive worked in both fields extensively, GA instruction and GA Charter- they are both drastically different jobs, and both take time to adjust to. I think a bigger problem is the CASA system, and that the training standards have gotten away from the practicalities of becoming a proficient pilot and have been replaced by a cover their arse legally type of system. Airmanship is barely mentioned (unless its in Jargon that sounds impractical), and it comes down to the individual instructor as to whether all those intricacies that create a true "airman" are passed on. Most of the time, new instructors are just hard pressed to get through the syllabus, and are more concerned about things that in the larger scheme of things, wont matter til much later on in the students career.
Things that regularly get missed: flying on attitudes and Power settings. Not trimming, concentrating on things inside the cockpit, not looking outside, not getting a "feeling" for aircraft performance. the inability to create space in the circuit, Poor approach profiles, poor flare attitudes, Fear of xwinds.. etc etc etc.
Almost all of these issues are easily rectified by experienced instructors, but its usually not done until its too late. At the nav level, you often are still dealing with simple flying errors, and this takes away from the mental capacity to navigate.
I also think that the sausage factories, like any other flight training organisation, will have a mix of quality in staff, however the student doesn't get the choice of who they fly with, and may often get stuck with the worst of the worst for the most important phases. In an aero club, if an instructor isnt effective or doesn't get results, students will choose someone else through word of mouth.
I think that the only way to have it fixed is for the industry to respect instruction and pay instructors more to stay in the field. Its not respected(even within instruction in many cases), and its treated as a stepping stone by the majority which lowers standards again cos their just biding time.
Fee-help is for the most part, bad for the industry, as there are people training out there who never see a dollar change hands, and never really understand the anxiety of having to work hard enough not to screw anything up. I did so much work on the ground particularly during PPL, because I simply couldn't afford to F#ck it up. There's an influx of pilots who just don't get that.
What we need is people to stay in instruction, or to do it part time along with their other jobs and Some sort of scenario where companies/individuals get rewarded for being involved in mentoring.
Its easy to sit there and say its all gone to crap, but I doubt that many pilots are anywhere near as good as they think they for the first few years anyway. if you've ever instructed, and then sat in aircraft with pilots who have only chartered, you can see the bad habits, and most charter pilots would say that most instructors are too slow and careful, but it depends on the individual. I always made a point of getting out in WX down to the legal minimums even with newish NAV students, because I figured they'd learn a lot more to see it with the safety of a more experienced pilot by their side than to be exposed to it first time on their own with someone else's life in their hands.
In charter obviously you need to know where the next "out" is, and when thats passed, where the next one is and so on. i don't see that it would be so hard on an industry level to have those kind of techniques included in the syllabus..
I don't really know what the answer is, but generally speaking instructors leave the industry just as they become effective leaving many who will never make it anywhere else and hate it, and junior instructors. The industry as a whole needs to act to ensure that senior instructors are paid a lot more to stay because for most its just not a realistic career long term.
Ive worked in both fields extensively, GA instruction and GA Charter- they are both drastically different jobs, and both take time to adjust to. I think a bigger problem is the CASA system, and that the training standards have gotten away from the practicalities of becoming a proficient pilot and have been replaced by a cover their arse legally type of system. Airmanship is barely mentioned (unless its in Jargon that sounds impractical), and it comes down to the individual instructor as to whether all those intricacies that create a true "airman" are passed on. Most of the time, new instructors are just hard pressed to get through the syllabus, and are more concerned about things that in the larger scheme of things, wont matter til much later on in the students career.
Things that regularly get missed: flying on attitudes and Power settings. Not trimming, concentrating on things inside the cockpit, not looking outside, not getting a "feeling" for aircraft performance. the inability to create space in the circuit, Poor approach profiles, poor flare attitudes, Fear of xwinds.. etc etc etc.
Almost all of these issues are easily rectified by experienced instructors, but its usually not done until its too late. At the nav level, you often are still dealing with simple flying errors, and this takes away from the mental capacity to navigate.
I also think that the sausage factories, like any other flight training organisation, will have a mix of quality in staff, however the student doesn't get the choice of who they fly with, and may often get stuck with the worst of the worst for the most important phases. In an aero club, if an instructor isnt effective or doesn't get results, students will choose someone else through word of mouth.
I think that the only way to have it fixed is for the industry to respect instruction and pay instructors more to stay in the field. Its not respected(even within instruction in many cases), and its treated as a stepping stone by the majority which lowers standards again cos their just biding time.
Fee-help is for the most part, bad for the industry, as there are people training out there who never see a dollar change hands, and never really understand the anxiety of having to work hard enough not to screw anything up. I did so much work on the ground particularly during PPL, because I simply couldn't afford to F#ck it up. There's an influx of pilots who just don't get that.
What we need is people to stay in instruction, or to do it part time along with their other jobs and Some sort of scenario where companies/individuals get rewarded for being involved in mentoring.
Its easy to sit there and say its all gone to crap, but I doubt that many pilots are anywhere near as good as they think they for the first few years anyway. if you've ever instructed, and then sat in aircraft with pilots who have only chartered, you can see the bad habits, and most charter pilots would say that most instructors are too slow and careful, but it depends on the individual. I always made a point of getting out in WX down to the legal minimums even with newish NAV students, because I figured they'd learn a lot more to see it with the safety of a more experienced pilot by their side than to be exposed to it first time on their own with someone else's life in their hands.
In charter obviously you need to know where the next "out" is, and when thats passed, where the next one is and so on. i don't see that it would be so hard on an industry level to have those kind of techniques included in the syllabus..
I don't really know what the answer is, but generally speaking instructors leave the industry just as they become effective leaving many who will never make it anywhere else and hate it, and junior instructors. The industry as a whole needs to act to ensure that senior instructors are paid a lot more to stay because for most its just not a realistic career long term.
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There used to be a flying school owner in Melbourne. When some kid came in with Mom/Dad for a TIF he would go outside and check out what sort of car Mummy or Daddy was driving. When the kid came back, he would approach the parental check-book holder and announce:
Ive just been talking to the instructor. Your kid's a natural!
I have exactly zero hours in a Kingair and so did Col Griffin.
Mick, you ain't so stupid, that's a great idea!
Ive just been talking to the instructor. Your kid's a natural!
I have exactly zero hours in a Kingair and so did Col Griffin.
Mick, you ain't so stupid, that's a great idea!
Nor can the company proprietors in some cases. Ex RAAF working for a school in MB told a student after a flight to give it up as his considered opinion was that the student didn't have what it took. Proprietor went ballistic at the loss of income and instructor departed shortly afterwards.
If it's an attitude problem rather than an aptitude one, you might also need to be sat down and told that your attitude stinks, and it needs to improve. It happened to me. Twice. And it worked.
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decided it was his role to "scrub" students rather than train them