Light plane crash in the Barossa Valley S.A.
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Maybe something like BASI - and they could also do VH stuff as well to provide credible reports.
See assorted comments in many threads on the state of investiations in Australia.
See assorted comments in many threads on the state of investiations in Australia.
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Wal, on the performance question, many of these aircraft are noticeably more sprightly than a C150, for example. There's no magic - it's largely just down to being 2/3 the weight with the same power as the 150, although some of the better makers invoke a few worthwhile tricks. Generally it's all a pleasant surprise, although depending on whether you've grown up in the GA world or the RA world, slightly different cautions apply. For example, as a long-time GA person, I still remind myself about how much the performance of my VLA varies with what look like relatively simple load variations. There's nothing new of course, just something to be aware of.
Onetrack, while I think you're being hard on your assessment of the LSA class since a number of the better products extend into certified aircraft territory, I agree entirely with your assessment of the RA training and accident reporting situation. There have been many requests for the reports and statistics to be available publicly but they have foundered, I understand, on the obstacle of RA Aus and individual liability. This may be valid legally but the reality is that the present system is simply indefensible from the safety viewpoint and, maybe as part of the current shake-up between RA Aus and CASA on a number of fronts, an open reporting system and database could be implemented - by CASA, if necessary. We simply can't go on with a situation in which individuals are unable to inspect freely the RA incident reports and statistics.
The point about lazy journalists and sensationalism of course brings to mind the old story generator:
The Lazy Journalists Plane Story Generator
Onetrack, while I think you're being hard on your assessment of the LSA class since a number of the better products extend into certified aircraft territory, I agree entirely with your assessment of the RA training and accident reporting situation. There have been many requests for the reports and statistics to be available publicly but they have foundered, I understand, on the obstacle of RA Aus and individual liability. This may be valid legally but the reality is that the present system is simply indefensible from the safety viewpoint and, maybe as part of the current shake-up between RA Aus and CASA on a number of fronts, an open reporting system and database could be implemented - by CASA, if necessary. We simply can't go on with a situation in which individuals are unable to inspect freely the RA incident reports and statistics.
The point about lazy journalists and sensationalism of course brings to mind the old story generator:
The Lazy Journalists Plane Story Generator
Last edited by tecman; 29th Jun 2014 at 03:53. Reason: typo
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Thanks 'tecy' I am aware of the power V the weight of these 'toy' panes
I just wanted to know what they where like say compared to the C150, the steed a lot of us oldies started out on when the Tecnam was just an idea in someones head:-)
Sometimes you see a seriously bent C150 & the driver/s got out albeit damaged themselves probably due a fair size 'crumple zone' where it all folds up around you but these 'toy' planes often yield very sad results, that's just a general observation & may not have any direct bearing on the subject matter here.
I wouldn't mind trying or having a go at something like the Tecnam before I drop off the perch but being quite a lot older than when I started I am far more reserved these days & rarely fly a SE of any denomination:-) reading the incidents like this one makes me think twice.
Wmk2
I just wanted to know what they where like say compared to the C150, the steed a lot of us oldies started out on when the Tecnam was just an idea in someones head:-) Sometimes you see a seriously bent C150 & the driver/s got out albeit damaged themselves probably due a fair size 'crumple zone' where it all folds up around you but these 'toy' planes often yield very sad results, that's just a general observation & may not have any direct bearing on the subject matter here.
I wouldn't mind trying or having a go at something like the Tecnam before I drop off the perch but being quite a lot older than when I started I am far more reserved these days & rarely fly a SE of any denomination:-) reading the incidents like this one makes me think twice.
Wmk2
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1T #60 "I therefore wish to rest my case, as explained below, M'lud."
Back in the day, I was fortunate in that I always enjoyed meteorology, the UK ATPL Met. course was one of the most informative and useful ever attended; and exams are easy to pass when you learn, and learn to understand the subject.
I have noticed over the last years a trend, if you will, toward learning simply to 'pass' an exam rather than 'studying' the subject. Freely, I admit to dozing off during electrics, hydraulics bore me rigid and lets just not talk about 'radio' and sure, I always reckoned any score over a pass on that type of subject was wasted drinking time. But the basic subjects, like Met need to be 'properly' understood, it's not a subject to be left behind on the ground after licensing. I mean so that from reading a synoptic, area forecast and TAF a 'picture' of what may be expected can be made. The Met. briefing officers were great at doing this, probably still are if you could 'have a yarn'. Even so, the rudimentary aspects must be understood and used, everyday as tools of trade. I notice these days the 'kids' can translate the 'legal' requirement of a forecast much faster than I can; but, when I quiz them about what they may experience, say during an approach, (terrain effects, wind shadows, inversions etc. etc.) then the eyes glaze over. I know, this ramble is a little esoteric for Sunday but I look at the MSL chart for the accident day, the Met. data provided earlier, the track and terrain and a clear message along with a picture forms in my minds eye.
Disclaimer: not saying these guys didn't 'properly' consider the weather; or the aircraft was at fault; or blaming anyone or anything at this stage. Just saying; the effect of a weather pattern can be a real, often forgotten factor, in the game we all play under Murphy's rules.
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Wal, I've read of your SE trepidation and who am I to try and change your mind? . For what it's worth, I also learned to fly in a C150 and have hundreds of hours on them, mainly in the bush. I think they are a great aircraft but I prefer P2002JF nowadays for my light-iron perambulations.
One of the sad parts of the SA accident was the apparent full-on nose impact. Ironically, the Tecnams with their classic steel structure and good roll bar do have better occupant protection than many LSAs, something which I took into account when looking for a VLA/LSA to fly. But I'm not sure anything would work with the type of impact that seems to have been sustained.
. For what it's worth, I also learned to fly in a C150 and have hundreds of hours on them, mainly in the bush. I think they are a great aircraft but I prefer P2002JF nowadays for my light-iron perambulations. One of the sad parts of the SA accident was the apparent full-on nose impact. Ironically, the Tecnams with their classic steel structure and good roll bar do have better occupant protection than many LSAs, something which I took into account when looking for a VLA/LSA to fly. But I'm not sure anything would work with the type of impact that seems to have been sustained.
I think you may have a point about the relative crashability of the C150 vs a typical LSA, WMk11, although it is a matter of degree only, the average sub compact car makes all light aircraft look like dinosaurs in that regard.
As far as a flying machine goes, there is little comparison, I converted onto a Tecnam Golf from a GA background (PA-28 to C208) and it feels like a sports car compared even to the smallest GA trainer, a thoroughly nice little fun flyer with well harmonised controls. As pointed out above, there are a few traps for the ham fisted, the nose gear is more fragile than you may be used to and pax plus fuel make up a significant proportion of the all up weight with a consequent impact on performance, but a good 'un for all that.
Whilst I agree that the RA Aus accident reporting leaves a lot to be desired, there are some serious rose tinted glasses in use if you think GA is much better. Go have a look at the VH-JGR report (C-172 near Beaudesert about 2 yrs ago) and see whether our esteemed ATSB add any value, when they even bother to investigate GA accidents.
As far as a flying machine goes, there is little comparison, I converted onto a Tecnam Golf from a GA background (PA-28 to C208) and it feels like a sports car compared even to the smallest GA trainer, a thoroughly nice little fun flyer with well harmonised controls. As pointed out above, there are a few traps for the ham fisted, the nose gear is more fragile than you may be used to and pax plus fuel make up a significant proportion of the all up weight with a consequent impact on performance, but a good 'un for all that.
Whilst I agree that the RA Aus accident reporting leaves a lot to be desired, there are some serious rose tinted glasses in use if you think GA is much better. Go have a look at the VH-JGR report (C-172 near Beaudesert about 2 yrs ago) and see whether our esteemed ATSB add any value, when they even bother to investigate GA accidents.
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'KH' I agree re the Met subject, that's still a guess mostly as against the other more scientific subjects IE Hyd's Elect etc.
That's one subject that is the same right from the very first day you pick up a basic Met book to the ATPL MET exam, fog is fog, rain is rain TS's are TS's, clouds are clouds as is turbulence etc etc & all make no distinction as to what level of drivers license you hold.
'XXX' you want me to fly out of EN in SE plane over all those houses? Are you insane? I did that for more years than I can recall, I ain't gunna be that dumb again buddy but tnxs for the offer
!
Wmk2
That's one subject that is the same right from the very first day you pick up a basic Met book to the ATPL MET exam, fog is fog, rain is rain TS's are TS's, clouds are clouds as is turbulence etc etc & all make no distinction as to what level of drivers license you hold.
'XXX' you want me to fly out of EN in SE plane over all those houses? Are you insane? I did that for more years than I can recall, I ain't gunna be that dumb again buddy but tnxs for the offer
!Wmk2
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Good question XT and I used to ask the same question until I heard that through some funding, some RAA employees were put through an accident investigation course... But that was a while ago and a few have left since so who knows....
That aside there are some CFI / L2's out there perfectly capable of a detailed and professional analysis.
That aside there are some CFI / L2's out there perfectly capable of a detailed and professional analysis.
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Don't worry Wal with any luck we should be at 500ft+ by the end of the runway at Essendon so should easily turn back should my fine example of Aussie aeronautical excellence fail us.
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Aussie Excellence
I've actually inspected "Jacks" Aussie built excellence,,pretty dam good I may add !!! Just wondering what "Aussie Built Excellence" Mr XXX has in his hangar ?
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Those aircraft known to be "bulletproof" are never found in RA categories.
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'3xxx' I don't like the way you put that buddy "with any luck"
There's two words that are not to be used in the same sentence when talking about aviation, they are luck & should, flying isn't about 'luck' & the word should just doesn't sound right when used in a sentence like 'we should clear those trees' or in yr case 'xxx' we should be able to land off a turn back....ohhh ahhhh scary thought
'Ultra' I think 'JR' was referring to the jab donk not so much the airframe if indeed that's what yr kinda alluding to there
I know we are all getting away from the original thread but that's usually the case after a while anyway 'cause I mean how much can we speculate here until the report comes out? For now two men lost their lives in what probably was a serviceable airframe by all accounts, lets hope we can learn from it whatever it is that ended the lives of two hapless aviators.
Wmk2
There's two words that are not to be used in the same sentence when talking about aviation, they are luck & should, flying isn't about 'luck' & the word should just doesn't sound right when used in a sentence like 'we should clear those trees' or in yr case 'xxx' we should be able to land off a turn back....ohhh ahhhh scary thought
'Ultra' I think 'JR' was referring to the jab donk not so much the airframe if indeed that's what yr kinda alluding to there
I know we are all getting away from the original thread but that's usually the case after a while anyway 'cause I mean how much can we speculate here until the report comes out? For now two men lost their lives in what probably was a serviceable airframe by all accounts, lets hope we can learn from it whatever it is that ended the lives of two hapless aviators.
Wmk2
nothing wrong with that, as long as you keep it balanced...
Last edited by Arnold E; 29th Jun 2014 at 10:19.
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For the sake of Wally et al, of course a turn back should not be attempted at those kind of altitudes and 500ft was thrown in as a light-hearted comment.
That being said to Wally's point about not wanting to fly singles and for that matter out of Essendon, that is a fair and valid call. When the noise stops in a single at Essendon at 500ft at the end of the runway I'm guessing the majority of pilots will try a turn back or similar life ending maneuver because unfortunately there are very few options available I'm afraid. It's been a couple of years since I've been in there however with all of these Essendon Fields type developments there isn't many fields left to turn back to.
Good point XT as technically Jacks is "Aussie built" of built-by-an-Aussie means that.
That being said to Wally's point about not wanting to fly singles and for that matter out of Essendon, that is a fair and valid call. When the noise stops in a single at Essendon at 500ft at the end of the runway I'm guessing the majority of pilots will try a turn back or similar life ending maneuver because unfortunately there are very few options available I'm afraid. It's been a couple of years since I've been in there however with all of these Essendon Fields type developments there isn't many fields left to turn back to.
Good point XT as technically Jacks is "Aussie built" of built-by-an-Aussie means that.