Diesel V8 flys
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I think you are missing the point. The rattle is where combustion starts. It's not a clean start to combustion as with a ignition engine. Hence the sound but that sound relates to the harmonics that are produced. When then are produced they travel through the airframe. It dose not matter what the frequency is if it what of a better term hurts the airframe. That's why the props are different and why the tail fell of. In a metal aframe they also produce cracking. They had an engine that was to be able to be placed into 182 etc but that never really took off ethier.
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They had an engine that was to be able to be placed into 182 etc but that never really took off ethier.
against = usually heavier, noisier, the need for extensive research, refinement and certification, fuel could "wax" at altitude/cold-soak -because it will happily burn it, doesn't mean it should!
The huge cost of research, development and Certification, for the relatively small volumes of piston GA engines, means the economics are very tight.
Anyone remember the Porsche engine? Robin? (Just 2 I know of)
Thielert was beset with problems, despite having an assured sales-volume .
Jabiru hardly has a stellar reputation in the reliability -stakes.
On the other hand, Where Robin (and others) disappeared from the Microlight market,but Rotax continued development, thrived and has expanded. They now have a very real and potent challenge to the Lycosaurus market.
Lycoming and Continental, having recovered their development and tooling-costs decades ago, must be really hurting....the recent directive on aftermarket cylinders gives a hint of this Complacency, poor quality-control and protectionism is not the way to run a sucessful business!
Meeting the customers' needs and expectations, is, however, a fairly fundamental foundation..
Inevitably, due to the shrinking Avgas market, the future choice will be Diesel (OK, CI ) or Mogas continuing with it's limitations.
I forsee a decade or so of stuff with high maintenance and relatively short life (Thielert) until the engineering refinement gives a whole new era of low-maintenance,affordable GA Piston engines.
I have deliberately ignored Electric....that could change at a stroke with the invention of a light,cheap, high energy-density battery....already, solar cells are edging closer to being practical as an airframe surface-cover....but , although massive leaps forward have been made, there's a huge capability -gap to be bridged.
Just idle speculation from a bystander.
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Steve, the Thielert Centuriian 2.0 lives on, part of the Continental Engine Group now.
Piper Introduces Diesel Archer | Flying Magazine
Piper Introduces Diesel Archer | Flying Magazine
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-@ No hoper , Yes, but the burden of all the early development costs was borne by those who lost their shirts, either directly swallowing a pill (taking an unpleasant loss) when Thielert folded, or buying a lemon powered by the troublesome, costly and maintenance-intensive early engines.
the new owner has , really, only the refinement costs to fund. That makes a huge difference to the profitability of the new product and also the legacy engines could well be a cash-cow, as the poor aircraft owner is well and truly caught by the gonads.....pay the ransom-price to keep the engines running, scrap the aircraft or , lastly, go through the process of converting to a different engine and getting certification.
Harmonic dampers are well-established in the automotive world, I don't see any issue with C.I engines for Aviation use...As has already been alluded-to, cold and thin-air are bigger things that could slow progress whilst their potential threat is eliminated.
the new owner has , really, only the refinement costs to fund. That makes a huge difference to the profitability of the new product and also the legacy engines could well be a cash-cow, as the poor aircraft owner is well and truly caught by the gonads.....pay the ransom-price to keep the engines running, scrap the aircraft or , lastly, go through the process of converting to a different engine and getting certification.
Harmonic dampers are well-established in the automotive world, I don't see any issue with C.I engines for Aviation use...As has already been alluded-to, cold and thin-air are bigger things that could slow progress whilst their potential threat is eliminated.
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The balancer wont take the impulse loads from being transmitted back into the airframe it is there to balance the engine some areo engines all ready have a external balancer and are also internally balanced with dampers inside the case. Harmonics are extremely damaging to an aircraft fuselage
This is a design engineering issue. If this issue results in a placard having to be fitted to forbid or limit operation in a specific power range then the engineer needed to be sacked.
Why or what design issue would result in an engine, 0-360 A1A for instance, to be built with such limitations. Why would Thielert engineers allow their names to be put onto a design that fails so expensively?
Harmonics is not a dark art. Why complicate this issue? All we do is discourage any innovation within this industry. Lord knows, regulation has stifled light aircraft development into a multi decade old time warp.
Why or what design issue would result in an engine, 0-360 A1A for instance, to be built with such limitations. Why would Thielert engineers allow their names to be put onto a design that fails so expensively?
Harmonics is not a dark art. Why complicate this issue? All we do is discourage any innovation within this industry. Lord knows, regulation has stifled light aircraft development into a multi decade old time warp.
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Harmonics whilst not a black art it is a major issue that has to be over come at it's designed phase and the fact that aircraft engines are different to any othe engines that we all use on a day to day level. The fact that you swing a 5 foot prop of the end is we'll maybe an issue one would think ?
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OZBUSDRIVER,
RR Alison 250 has an RPM forbidden to tarry range. So too PT6 engines that I know have the same. I think it would be inherent in the rotating components.
RR Alison 250 has an RPM forbidden to tarry range. So too PT6 engines that I know have the same. I think it would be inherent in the rotating components.
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It's interesting reading about harmonics and dynamic balancing, and the causes of the "clatter" of diesel engines. All of it new to me!
However, I would like to inject a note of practicality. Torsional impulses, harmonics and so on do not limit the life of the Diamond product, singles or twins. It didn't with the unsuccessful Thielert engine, and (so I understand) it doesn't with the more successful Austro engines. There are no prohibited RPM ranges either, unlike (for example) the old Tobago TB10, with a horizontally opposed four cylinder SI engine.
Re Diamond, you could tell it was a CI engine in two ways. 1) Power almost independent of RPM, and 2) a horrible clatter on shutdown, as the propeller clutch shuddered its way to a stop. That's it. (Ok, and the lightweight propeller.)
Don't mean to put a dampener on the discussion - I'm learning lots - but let's not say "they can't do that", when clearly, they can.
However, I would like to inject a note of practicality. Torsional impulses, harmonics and so on do not limit the life of the Diamond product, singles or twins. It didn't with the unsuccessful Thielert engine, and (so I understand) it doesn't with the more successful Austro engines. There are no prohibited RPM ranges either, unlike (for example) the old Tobago TB10, with a horizontally opposed four cylinder SI engine.
Re Diamond, you could tell it was a CI engine in two ways. 1) Power almost independent of RPM, and 2) a horrible clatter on shutdown, as the propeller clutch shuddered its way to a stop. That's it. (Ok, and the lightweight propeller.)
Don't mean to put a dampener on the discussion - I'm learning lots - but let's not say "they can't do that", when clearly, they can.
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Now one putting a damper on anything. But there is a lot of difference between a low HP engine to something they claim around 350 HP. I put more on later about problems P&W are having at the moment with turbine blades and harmonics
What is Compacted Graphite iron ?
COMPACTED GRAPHITE ENGINE BLOCKS Precision Engine
http://www.sintercast.com/file/docum...er-heads-1.pdf
COMPACTED GRAPHITE ENGINE BLOCKS Precision Engine
http://www.sintercast.com/file/docum...er-heads-1.pdf
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Andyrr what you not as clever as you thought you was. Hey the sky is blue. You need to wake up you not as smart as you like us to all think you are. You don't even know basic bgt. Drrrrrr
As I said you can make more power out of a carby. That is unless this guy is me and I've gone and made these carbys and set up a web site.
Instead of insults perhaps you should do some reading and exams and put your time into that instead of mindless posts.
Cheers
As I said you can make more power out of a carby. That is unless this guy is me and I've gone and made these carbys and set up a web site.
Instead of insults perhaps you should do some reading and exams and put your time into that instead of mindless posts.
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That is an informative website yr right.
There is one aspect of aero engine operation that it didn't discuss though: changing air density.
A carburettor engine designed for a wide variety of air densities needs either a mixture lever operated by an expert, or a very complex auto-lean mechanism. In practice these days, manufacturers rely on the first option!
A single-power-lever engine can be operated at the most appropriate f/a ratio at all times, and needs no special expertise outside the factory or overhaul shop. Granted you won't get the theoretical efficiency of a high-end expensive carburettor. But 90% efficiency with no hassles is pretty good for us "get from a to b no worries" types.
There is one aspect of aero engine operation that it didn't discuss though: changing air density.
A carburettor engine designed for a wide variety of air densities needs either a mixture lever operated by an expert, or a very complex auto-lean mechanism. In practice these days, manufacturers rely on the first option!
A single-power-lever engine can be operated at the most appropriate f/a ratio at all times, and needs no special expertise outside the factory or overhaul shop. Granted you won't get the theoretical efficiency of a high-end expensive carburettor. But 90% efficiency with no hassles is pretty good for us "get from a to b no worries" types.
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I totally agree with what you say about the efficiently of a carburettor. How ever the point was that you can make more HP/torque for a carby. For most application the high end is not required to the degree of what this carby dose. But it explains a whole lot and more the differences between the two systems. Then you can have a pressure injected carby which is an extremely complex bit of kit.
In drag racing now they measure grains of water in the air. It's gone from we'll let's try this to an extreme science to get the lasts tenth out of a machine.
There Arnt to my knowledge any Single lever piston engine aircraft that Arnt fadec controlled. There are however a lot of turbine engine aircraft that are.
The fuel basically in a turbine is ethier on or off. The pilot has no control over fuel other than a power lever. This is all because fuel is computed via air speed and placement of the power lever. In a piston engine aircraft this is extremly hard to do unless the use if electronics is used. Then that makes the system complex and takes away the simplicity of an engine. And the ability for the engine to run with out any electrical power.
It's all a balance in the end.
Aviation is similar to drag racing. How fast you won't to go is only held back by the amount of cash you won't to through at it.
I keep saying fuel is the cheapest thing you can place in an aircraft.
Cheers
In drag racing now they measure grains of water in the air. It's gone from we'll let's try this to an extreme science to get the lasts tenth out of a machine.
There Arnt to my knowledge any Single lever piston engine aircraft that Arnt fadec controlled. There are however a lot of turbine engine aircraft that are.
The fuel basically in a turbine is ethier on or off. The pilot has no control over fuel other than a power lever. This is all because fuel is computed via air speed and placement of the power lever. In a piston engine aircraft this is extremly hard to do unless the use if electronics is used. Then that makes the system complex and takes away the simplicity of an engine. And the ability for the engine to run with out any electrical power.
It's all a balance in the end.
Aviation is similar to drag racing. How fast you won't to go is only held back by the amount of cash you won't to through at it.
I keep saying fuel is the cheapest thing you can place in an aircraft.
Cheers
Let's be clear. Apart from the fact that yr right can't spot a little innuendo, that article is an opinion piece with no references and no date. It provides absolutely no factual evidence to support any claim. It is as much use as any other "found on the internet" information that's not subject to some scrutiny.
The only thing that carburetors have going for them is they are passive, mechanical devices. Whether they make more or less power on a dyno is pretty much irrelevant because engines are not useful on dynos. They need to be brought into the real world, where atmospheric pressure, temperature, fuel quality and density, wear and maintenance are all, for carburetors, uncompensated variables. So, for aircraft we give the pilot a big red knob to apply a crude correction factor to the whole system.
Unfortunately, so very few pilots know how to correctly use it.
In my opinion, a properly engineered FADEC would be far superior in almost every respect. It could compensate for most of the above mentioned factors and more. The automotive industry has adopted and developed the technology to the point where failure rates causing loss of function are at levels that even the big jets would be pleased with. Alas, with all the regulations that "keep the aircraft in the air" we won't be seeing it any time soon.
At least carburetors make more power on the dyno
The only thing that carburetors have going for them is they are passive, mechanical devices. Whether they make more or less power on a dyno is pretty much irrelevant because engines are not useful on dynos. They need to be brought into the real world, where atmospheric pressure, temperature, fuel quality and density, wear and maintenance are all, for carburetors, uncompensated variables. So, for aircraft we give the pilot a big red knob to apply a crude correction factor to the whole system.
Unfortunately, so very few pilots know how to correctly use it.
In my opinion, a properly engineered FADEC would be far superior in almost every respect. It could compensate for most of the above mentioned factors and more. The automotive industry has adopted and developed the technology to the point where failure rates causing loss of function are at levels that even the big jets would be pleased with. Alas, with all the regulations that "keep the aircraft in the air" we won't be seeing it any time soon.
At least carburetors make more power on the dyno
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Let's be perfectly clear. In the automotive world where you can play and change to your hearts content were claims that are made that are incorrect are soon found out and products don't last. It was one article I came across that showed what really happens in the real world as I said very earl in this post. I have not and did not go looking for this but found that some people may find it interesting.
Not everything new is better. To be honest a fadec controlled engine is going to give you what. Sfa. Aircraft engines are as they are for a reason. There are no other production engines that will do what an aircraft engine will do. All fadec will do is take the leaning out of a pilots hands and may and it's a big may give a slightly better fuel use age. That's it.
Not really much of an advantage in the end. The reason why the auto motive industry was the tighten emission controls that have been imposed. A piston engine with spark ignition has a very narrow brand of schicometic envelope. And before you say efi gives better fuel economy yes but only slightly by being able to keep the engine in its envelope closer it the transmission that give the economy as we now head toward 9 speeds in passenger cars.
Cheers
Not everything new is better. To be honest a fadec controlled engine is going to give you what. Sfa. Aircraft engines are as they are for a reason. There are no other production engines that will do what an aircraft engine will do. All fadec will do is take the leaning out of a pilots hands and may and it's a big may give a slightly better fuel use age. That's it.
Not really much of an advantage in the end. The reason why the auto motive industry was the tighten emission controls that have been imposed. A piston engine with spark ignition has a very narrow brand of schicometic envelope. And before you say efi gives better fuel economy yes but only slightly by being able to keep the engine in its envelope closer it the transmission that give the economy as we now head toward 9 speeds in passenger cars.
Cheers
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Oh btw. Casa not so long back where pushing that all o/h aircraft engines had to be DYNO tested before release. The industry got together and where able to have it stopped before it was imposed on the industry.
Cheers
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