The ticking time bomb in regional aviation
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Not sure who you're referring to as LAME haters, Hasherucf. I'm certainly not hating on the LAMEs, in fact I'm aspiring to become a LAME myself. The trouble is, it's the old catch-22: everyone wants LAMEs and no one want to train AMEs up to become LAMEs. So where am I expected to get SOE/OJT from to get my license?
The point you made about not being worried about GA work being outsourced or ex-QF LAMEs taking your jobs is a pertinent one and one reason why I'm trying to get out of the airlines and into a gig with a GA/ag/regional operator. But, you guessed it! They all want/need LAMEs, not AMEs.
The point you made about not being worried about GA work being outsourced or ex-QF LAMEs taking your jobs is a pertinent one and one reason why I'm trying to get out of the airlines and into a gig with a GA/ag/regional operator. But, you guessed it! They all want/need LAMEs, not AMEs.
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Well emergency000 my best advice is be prepared to move. I was lucky enough to have a great apprenticeship in a country town under the old system .Since then I have moved for experience and made some great friends along the way .
Never had an issue filling a SOE.If you are willing to throw yourself into the work.
I don't get that dubbleyew_eight . Sure people sometimes struggle to get SOE in some category's and I don't know many AME's that have had a complete SOE at the end of four years. Regardless if its volume or quality you still work the four years ! If you are spending more time on quality you can log that ......simple.
You can log anytime working on aircraft. So if its a production environment is very easy to get .If is a restoration workshop you might struggle on areas like scheduled maintenance.
Hardest part i find is getting apprentices to fill out SOE.Most are left with a back log at the end of 4 years and that results in a day of signing for me :-(
Never had an issue filling a SOE.If you are willing to throw yourself into the work.
dubbleyew eight wrote:
about a decade ago I worked with my LAME to build a schedule of experience.
after about 5 years we both independently came to the conclusion that it was an impossibility. the schedule items age out after 4 years.
it matters what not a zot what the quality of the work is, it just matters that the volume of work is completed in the time of a typical apprenticeship.
about a decade ago I worked with my LAME to build a schedule of experience.
after about 5 years we both independently came to the conclusion that it was an impossibility. the schedule items age out after 4 years.
it matters what not a zot what the quality of the work is, it just matters that the volume of work is completed in the time of a typical apprenticeship.
You can log anytime working on aircraft. So if its a production environment is very easy to get .If is a restoration workshop you might struggle on areas like scheduled maintenance.
Hardest part i find is getting apprentices to fill out SOE.Most are left with a back log at the end of 4 years and that results in a day of signing for me :-(
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the addition to the trader is called Airwaves.
if all else fails find a private owner.
we all get one sent to us.
how can you not understand the SOE problem?
the problem is that entries older than 4 years are no longer counted.
you must accumulate all the experience in a 4 year period.
but of course very soon now all this will be irrelevant.
if all else fails find a private owner.
we all get one sent to us.
how can you not understand the SOE problem?
the problem is that entries older than 4 years are no longer counted.
you must accumulate all the experience in a 4 year period.
but of course very soon now all this will be irrelevant.
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W8
Where do you get this???
There is no such limitation for a CAR 31 licence. Actually you need a minimum of 4 years with at least 2 years on category (AAC9.91)
And for a Part 66 licence your SOEs must be converted to licence privileges by 27 June 2015. Even so your SOEs are still good for RPL after 27 June 2015 with one of the Part 147 organisations, which is where you will need to go after June 2015.
entries older than 4 years are no longer counted.
you must accumulate all the experience in a 4 year period
you must accumulate all the experience in a 4 year period
There is no such limitation for a CAR 31 licence. Actually you need a minimum of 4 years with at least 2 years on category (AAC9.91)
And for a Part 66 licence your SOEs must be converted to licence privileges by 27 June 2015. Even so your SOEs are still good for RPL after 27 June 2015 with one of the Part 147 organisations, which is where you will need to go after June 2015.
Last edited by hiwaytohell; 14th Feb 2014 at 21:42. Reason: Added date
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The JOE is more about collecting competencies and not so much about getting "hours". The assessors seem to like to see at least 3 entries in each competency.
It does seem a little over complex but seen 4 apprentices deal with it now.
The old SOE system had some quirks . Like gaining 100 hours in turbochargers, 50 hours in radar system or 50 hours in Rad Alt . Almost impossible!
The four year restriction I haven't heard about?
It does seem a little over complex but seen 4 apprentices deal with it now.
The old SOE system had some quirks . Like gaining 100 hours in turbochargers, 50 hours in radar system or 50 hours in Rad Alt . Almost impossible!
The four year restriction I haven't heard about?
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The issue I have is that I started my apprenticeship right around the time CASA started transitioning from SOE to OJT/JOE. So I have a Journal which I had to complete to get my Cert IV, however I don't know that it counts for licensing as it's not an OJT book. Otherwise, I'd likely have a completed OJT book already and simply have to complete my diploma exams.
Unless you know any different, Hasherucf? Does the Journal count towards OJT for licensing? I can't find any mention of JOE in the Part 66 MOS.
Cheers,
John
Unless you know any different, Hasherucf? Does the Journal count towards OJT for licensing? I can't find any mention of JOE in the Part 66 MOS.
Cheers,
John
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emergency000
I do think that the current system for getting licensed is ridiculous, a joke, a fas, so far up itself that no one can see where they're going. Not to mention the fact that you speak to 3 different CASA staff and you'll get 3 different versions of how to become a LAME and what that LAME's privileges are. But also speak to 3 different 147 schools and you'll get 3 different sets of criteria with 3 different prices!
I have the emails that can show as fact, CASA's part 66 team have little to no understanding of part 66 licenses, and when they don't know they make it up and when you ask again, they pass it on to the next person, who doesn't know and subsequently takes a guess.
CASA is negligent in regards to AME licensing in Australia and I truly believe that in 3 or 4 weeks with a hand picked team of LAME's and AME's I could easily come up with an AME licensing framework far superior to what is now a massive irreversible shamozzle. I also thought the old system was fine, it just needed updating, not throwing out.
However I have to disagree with some of your other points. I was one of those fools who finished my apprenticeship with a draw full of worksheets and couldn't be bothered doing my SOE. It seemed so painful at the time, but compared to today's criteria it was a walk in the park.
Despite being an AME only, I worked at many different shops over a 10 year period and when I walked in the front door the first thing manager/owner would say was "What licenses have you got?"
BUT, when I explained my experience, my background and my skillsets, they always gave me a shot. I never had a problem getting a job as an AME. The industry needs AME's. Experienced labour that can get work done without the high cost of a LAME.
Getting licensed in GA was easy. Do the work, put in the time and it was an eventuality.
Getting licensed in the airlines in today's environment however, is near on impossible. That my friend is a very long and narrow pathway that is often difficult to follow.
I'm booked on another type course this year for an airline in Australia and in my opinion it's a case of right place, right time, right attitude.
Unless of course you buy your way in. Somehow build enough SOE and or pay for your own type course and buy the PCT. Even then, it'd be hard to find an airline that's actually hiring where there's not a list of people who know people that would be better suited to the job.
I do think that the current system for getting licensed is ridiculous, a joke, a fas, so far up itself that no one can see where they're going. Not to mention the fact that you speak to 3 different CASA staff and you'll get 3 different versions of how to become a LAME and what that LAME's privileges are. But also speak to 3 different 147 schools and you'll get 3 different sets of criteria with 3 different prices!
I have the emails that can show as fact, CASA's part 66 team have little to no understanding of part 66 licenses, and when they don't know they make it up and when you ask again, they pass it on to the next person, who doesn't know and subsequently takes a guess.
CASA is negligent in regards to AME licensing in Australia and I truly believe that in 3 or 4 weeks with a hand picked team of LAME's and AME's I could easily come up with an AME licensing framework far superior to what is now a massive irreversible shamozzle. I also thought the old system was fine, it just needed updating, not throwing out.
However I have to disagree with some of your other points. I was one of those fools who finished my apprenticeship with a draw full of worksheets and couldn't be bothered doing my SOE. It seemed so painful at the time, but compared to today's criteria it was a walk in the park.
Despite being an AME only, I worked at many different shops over a 10 year period and when I walked in the front door the first thing manager/owner would say was "What licenses have you got?"
BUT, when I explained my experience, my background and my skillsets, they always gave me a shot. I never had a problem getting a job as an AME. The industry needs AME's. Experienced labour that can get work done without the high cost of a LAME.
Getting licensed in GA was easy. Do the work, put in the time and it was an eventuality.
Getting licensed in the airlines in today's environment however, is near on impossible. That my friend is a very long and narrow pathway that is often difficult to follow.
I'm booked on another type course this year for an airline in Australia and in my opinion it's a case of right place, right time, right attitude.
Unless of course you buy your way in. Somehow build enough SOE and or pay for your own type course and buy the PCT. Even then, it'd be hard to find an airline that's actually hiring where there's not a list of people who know people that would be better suited to the job.
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Aviater: I agree and also believe that, with a bit of tweaking and polishing, the CAR 30/SOE system would have worked perfectly fine. Sadly we're stuck with this Part 66 
for the foreseeable future, so I've just got to deal with it now.
Despite working in the airlines, I'm not currently planning to pursue a type-rated license at this stage, as it's difficult enough for guys in heavy or base maintenance. For someone like me who works in a line station on foreign carriers, it's all but impossible. I'm actually aiming to get out of the airlines and into GA or something similar but that is extremely difficult, it seems, without a license. I've spoken to a number of operators so far and all of them say the same thing: "We'd like to take you on but what we really need is a LAME." So the "walk up start" thing seems to be a thing of the past. Either that of I've got to start looking in rural NSW or QLD. If you know of any shops that are after a young AME, please PM me to let me know who to call.
As for getting licensed in GA, I'm sure it is easy especially compared to the airlines. I'd be more than happy to do the work, if someone would give me somewhere to do the work!
Cheers,
John
for the foreseeable future, so I've just got to deal with it now.Despite working in the airlines, I'm not currently planning to pursue a type-rated license at this stage, as it's difficult enough for guys in heavy or base maintenance. For someone like me who works in a line station on foreign carriers, it's all but impossible. I'm actually aiming to get out of the airlines and into GA or something similar but that is extremely difficult, it seems, without a license. I've spoken to a number of operators so far and all of them say the same thing: "We'd like to take you on but what we really need is a LAME." So the "walk up start" thing seems to be a thing of the past. Either that of I've got to start looking in rural NSW or QLD. If you know of any shops that are after a young AME, please PM me to let me know who to call.
As for getting licensed in GA, I'm sure it is easy especially compared to the airlines. I'd be more than happy to do the work, if someone would give me somewhere to do the work!
Cheers,
John
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John; There is quite a bit of misleading information in this thread.
If you are in Melbourne then I suggest you go and talk to the folks at AITC / Kangan TAFE to map you out a plan to get licenced. Take your JOE/SOE's and everything also you have with you.
Don't waste your time with CASA, they can only quote you the regs, it is the Part 147 you need to talk to.
The Part 66 is not as bad as some would have you believe (OK it is badly drafted and was badly executed by CASA)'. But it can be achieved in much shorter time although is more costly than getting a CAR31 licence.
Before you go knocking on any doors you need to know the actions, sequence, cost and time to get licenced. And if you can knock over the easy ones.
If you came to my office looking for a job, sure the first question I would ask is "what licences do you have". If you are only an AME, and if you seemed to have a decent attitude, then the second question would be "how soon can you get licenced". That answer would determine if there were more questions.
Don't be put off that the various Part 147 schools might give you slightly different answers, in the end they can all get you licenced, just for various reasons they have slightly different methods.
If you are in Melbourne then I suggest you go and talk to the folks at AITC / Kangan TAFE to map you out a plan to get licenced. Take your JOE/SOE's and everything also you have with you.
Don't waste your time with CASA, they can only quote you the regs, it is the Part 147 you need to talk to.
The Part 66 is not as bad as some would have you believe (OK it is badly drafted and was badly executed by CASA)'. But it can be achieved in much shorter time although is more costly than getting a CAR31 licence.
Before you go knocking on any doors you need to know the actions, sequence, cost and time to get licenced. And if you can knock over the easy ones.
If you came to my office looking for a job, sure the first question I would ask is "what licences do you have". If you are only an AME, and if you seemed to have a decent attitude, then the second question would be "how soon can you get licenced". That answer would determine if there were more questions.
Don't be put off that the various Part 147 schools might give you slightly different answers, in the end they can all get you licenced, just for various reasons they have slightly different methods.
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G'day hiwaytohell,
I spoke to one of the LAMEs at work yesterday and before getting his type-rated B1/B2, he held both as non type-rated licenses and had gotten them under the Part 66 system. Basically, he said exactly what you just said: don't deal with CASA, deal with the 147 MTO, they'll do all the admin for you, you just complete your diploma and that's it.
So in terms of how far off getting a license: I've got 2 exams, 2 essays and one competency to fill out. Then wait for CASA to issue the license. So maybe 2 months on my side and who knows how long on CASA's side.
One operator I spoke to recently would have taken me on except that they'd recently lost 1 or 2 LAMEs and were right on the threshold for the LAME:AME ratio.
Cheers,
John
I spoke to one of the LAMEs at work yesterday and before getting his type-rated B1/B2, he held both as non type-rated licenses and had gotten them under the Part 66 system. Basically, he said exactly what you just said: don't deal with CASA, deal with the 147 MTO, they'll do all the admin for you, you just complete your diploma and that's it.
So in terms of how far off getting a license: I've got 2 exams, 2 essays and one competency to fill out. Then wait for CASA to issue the license. So maybe 2 months on my side and who knows how long on CASA's side.
One operator I spoke to recently would have taken me on except that they'd recently lost 1 or 2 LAMEs and were right on the threshold for the LAME:AME ratio.
Cheers,
John
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So I figured I should provide an update: since my last post, I have attained a non-type rated B2 license. It went reasonably smoothly once I was given a clear pathway to ow from Kangan. I got my Form 465 sent to me just a few weeks before Kangan closed its doors for good.
Now for the fun of getting an initial type rating!
I was told that I Can send my journal that I used in my apprenticeship to somewhere with an approved OJT book like QAC. They then migrate the entries into their OJT book and send through lot back to me. If I have more than the minimminimum required OJT for an initial type, I then sit the type course and get the type added to my license.
BUT I was then told by QAC that there was a question raised with CASA along the lines of any OJT book being approved by the Part 145 AMO, even though the book is produced, checked and approved for the Part 147 MTO! The whole thing seems like a complete lot of skullbuggery as usual. I'm due to call QAC back sometime in the next few days to see of CASA came through with an answer.
I'll keep you posted.
Cheers
Now for the fun of getting an initial type rating!
I was told that I Can send my journal that I used in my apprenticeship to somewhere with an approved OJT book like QAC. They then migrate the entries into their OJT book and send through lot back to me. If I have more than the minimminimum required OJT for an initial type, I then sit the type course and get the type added to my license.
BUT I was then told by QAC that there was a question raised with CASA along the lines of any OJT book being approved by the Part 145 AMO, even though the book is produced, checked and approved for the Part 147 MTO! The whole thing seems like a complete lot of skullbuggery as usual. I'm due to call QAC back sometime in the next few days to see of CASA came through with an answer.
I'll keep you posted.
Cheers
