PPRuNe Forums

Go Back   PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions
Forgotten your Username/Password?

The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 19th Jan 2014, 05:09   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Nowra
Age: 37
Posts: 22
Jabiru Bad experience

Ladies and gents, I would like to share my experience thus far with this product and the factory that makes them.
I own 2 Jabirus, a 230-D and a 160-C both aircraft have been an absolute nightmare when it comes to reliability.
The J230 suffered its first engine failure at 225 hours requiring a complete Top end, subsequently it suffered multiple component failures up until its final demise at 700 hrs with Jabiru admitting it was the failed thru bolt design that destroyed the bottom end, not once did they offer any support even after multiple requests.
The J160 suffered an in flight engine failure under 200 hours since the factory performed a top end overhaul( thru bolt failure)! since I have owned it three heads have failed due cracking and valve seat movement multiple other component failures and the nail in the coffin for this engine was a valve seat falling out at idle on the first pre-flight run up of the day all within 300 hrs of the Top end overhaul.
The factory have not once offered to help, never shown the slightest empathy or a desire to support a customer. They display a complete disregard for factual evidence when providing an excuse why a component failed.
I have been bullied, ignored and treated like a fool.
Not one Jabiru engine in my local area has made the 1000 hr TBO and not one owner would purchase another Jabiru.
The business manager has treated me with arrogance of the highest order and display's what I can only describe as an extremely deceptive nature.
The business manager flat out refuses to return my property, and will not listen to any reason or evidentiary facts stating that they must return it.
One investigation conducted by the company as to why a cylinder dropped a valve seat and had cracking, had three different conclusions over multiple days.
I regret the day that I purchased both of these aircraft, they have cost me a small fortune to keep running and I warn others to do their home work thoroughly before spending your money with them.
deadstick1 is offline   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 07:21   #2 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Qld troppo
Posts: 3,281
Quote:
I own 2 Jabirus, a 230-D and a 160-C
Slow learner?

Dr
ForkTailedDrKiller is online now   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 07:46   #3 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Perth - Western Australia
Age: 65
Posts: 1,111
Hmmm, that's a pretty sad indictment of a company and its products - but unfortunately, you have plenty of unhappy fellow owners.
Just googling "Jabiru problems" and "Jabiru engines", will give one enough alarming reading material, to ensure that a potential purchaser wouldn't buy one - let alone two.
onetrack is offline   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 08:36   #4 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,939
Whist I sympathise with you to an extent, I don't think joining PPRuNe to slag out one of the only Australian aircraft manufacturers and the only Australian aircraft engine will help your cause, whatever it may be.

Elsewhere on another forum you have posted the exact same information as you have here but then gone on to post an independent third party report on the condition of your engine. In this report it specifically states that the examined engine has suffered a significant heat related event, but yet you are blaming Jabiru for operator error?

The report then goes on to say that issues with the thru bolts caused problems with your engine which is fair enough as this is / was a known issue.

I would be looking closer to home to determine who is flying and potentially mis-managing your engines....
VH-XXX is offline   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 09:17   #5 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hot West & not as far North
Age: 59
Posts: 411
Have to disagree with you on this one X .... I for one don't frequent any other forums at the moment, so any information is good information if it helps save my wrinkly butt .... Perhaps All the previous issues with the Jab engines have been rectified and if so all to the better for Jabiru ... I certainly support Australian manufactured products however I have had some previous experience with the product that was not up to the job and haven't been back for another go.
Avgas172 is online now   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 09:46   #6 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Goolwa
Age: 49
Posts: 44
Jabiru problems

The "heat related issue" is a common "out" by Jabiru. You can buy the J230 from the factory with steam gauges so you only have one CHT which is located on number 6 cylinder. The POH states that the engine can operate upto 350F continuously. The reality is that No. 6 is often not the hottest cylinder, no. 4 is and the CHT should never go over 270 (a tech from Jabiru was shocked when I mentioned 350 and he told me never over 270). And thanks to the RAAus rules you cannot change anything without factory authorisation if being used in a flying school, so you can't change the position of the CHT sensor, or fix the baffles etc. So no. 4 gets too hot, valve drops off and Jabiru go " ooh you cooked the engine, sorry that's abuse... No warranty.
The above is what happened to me J230 after 283 hours.
Dexta is offline   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 09:47   #7 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,939
Perhaps DeadStick can also post the independent report here so we can all make a more informed decision.

Wally, with a Jab as per other types too correct operation is very important; there have been many occurrences of students cooking engines by climbing too steeply, prolonged climbs not IAW best practices etc. If the level of diligence was applied to Jabiru engine operation as that of a turbine or perhaps a turbocharged Lycoming, much of the noise would go away. Sure sure you can say that students fly 150's around all day without issues but it is what is as they say!

Known issues and thru bolts I have no issue with, they have identified these. Unfortunately what we have here is a one-sided view at best from a disgruntled customer for which the full reasons we will never fully learn.

Dexta - the heat issue was identified by a third party and has not been used as an "out" in this case.
VH-XXX is offline   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 09:56   #8 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Goolwa
Age: 49
Posts: 44
XXX unfortunately the POH states that CHT can be upto 350F (the green arc) and if you only have one CHT Sensor the CHT can be "in the green" but one or more cylinders are getting hot. Students can be operating the aircraft by the POH but damage may still be being done to the engine.
Dexta is offline   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 10:14   #9 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,939
All logical there Wal. I won't say any more for a number of reasons other than to say that I know of someone that cooked 5 out of 6 cylinders when he hired a "real" engined GA aircraft through mis-management so I don't usually blame the factory in the first instance in any such occurrence.
VH-XXX is offline   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 10:15   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Albany, West Australia
Age: 73
Posts: 402
XXX You must be living on another planet to not be aware of the many, many, many Jabiru engine issues.

If 100% of them were reported - there would be some 'activity' within the regulatory ranks. For many, and varied, reasons - most are not reported.... probably because the owner wants to onsell the problem aircraft .... asap.

happy days,
poteroo is offline   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 10:30   #11 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,235
Is Jabiru subcontracting to Continental?
Old Akro is offline   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 10:37   #12 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hot West & not as far North
Age: 59
Posts: 411
Awwww come on OA my 0300 is still powering on after 13years ....
Avgas172 is online now   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 10:37   #13 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,939
Poteroo I am quite aware with approaching 1000 hours behind them whilst maintaining them.

Old Akro, funny that, I was actually referring to a Continental engine above!
VH-XXX is offline   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 10:38   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Australia
Age: 65
Posts: 141
All the clowns are not in the circus !

We just completed 1000 hours of flight training without a hitch + 980 on the prior engine, we do factory exchange at 1000 as a matter of course and the aircraft is run to SOPS on mostly training with some club member use.

In my 45 years of commercial flying, the Jabiru J170C, which is what I'm familiar with, is a lovely forgiving airplane and one that I'm happy to fly personally and to send 15 or 70 year old students solo in. I find it a shame that PPRuNe and some of it's regular contributors in particular, continuously grip about the Jabiru aircraft, engine or the manufacturer.

Why not talk about something more important, like:-

"One particular concern is that Flying Training Facilities (i.e. FTFs and SFTFs) have, up until now, been afforded the full benefits of our Member Liability insurance cover without contributing to the annual premium cost. It has also emerged that, unlike affiliated Clubs, our FTFS and SFTFs make no recurrent financial contribution towards the organisation’s running costs".

Talk about bite the hand that feeds you ... You have a greater risk to your future with this new development than wondering about J2200 or such engines, irrespective of the make !
Skywagon1915 is offline   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 10:54   #15 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 2,589
i have read the report on the other forum, and the temps went high, but high temps for a short period doesn't have much to do with abnormal cylinder wear, or the crankshaft journal wear caused by the SB. Significant wear of cylinder barrels at 730 hours???

my 912 now has 1000 hrs, flown hard, cruise at 5200rpm, flown regularly on days with OATs in the 40's plenty of short field work with max angle climbs to 1000 agl or more. and still can see the factory hone marks on the cylinder walls.

a Rotax powerplant in a Jabiru airframe and they would almost quite literally have a bulletproof aircraft on their hands...
Ultralights is offline   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 20:20   #16 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 255
In September last year a post entitled 'Two more Jabirus down' may be of interest to contributors to this current Jabiru engine problem post if they missed it at the time. I think the following is still relevant.


I attended a forum at Oshkosh on Jab cooling presented by Robert Gutterage. Maybe most of Jabs problems are insufficient cooling going undetected due to incorrect CHT information being presented to the pilot. Certainly Robert presented a very well researched forum backed up by hard data. Note :- He had data - not a bunch of 'I thinks'. He showed slides of what he did to solve the problem in his aircraft, as well as the 'before' data.

Apologies to Tim Juhl for pinching the following from a forum on Jabs.
(Remember-stealing articles from one writer is plagiarism----stealing from many is research.)



Quote:
I attended a forum at Oshkosh where a fellow discussed his research on cooling a Jabiru 3300. He had compared the spark plug washer type CHT sensors to ones directly in the head and showed that they pretty consistently indicated CHT's about 70° cooler than actual temperatures! If this is the case, Jab operators could be cooking their engines while thinking that their CHT's were within safe limits. He ended up designing a cooling baffling system that is nothing like what comes from the factory and claimed that was the only way he was able to get the CHT's under control.

I wonder what the rest of you Jabiru 3300 operators have to say about this? I'm not flying mine yet but will be getting ready to hang it soon.

For a summary on the fellow who made the presentation check out EAA AirVenture Oshkosh - The World's Greatest Aviation Celebration
EAA AirVenture Oshkosh - The World's Greatest Aviation Celebration



It's worth looking at the last web site outlining Robert's qualifications. He's the right man for the job.

For all those who want to junk the Jab engine for as yet no clearly defined problems it would be good if you reflected on the Wright R3350 turbo compound engine used in the B29 and in the Super Constellation. When those engines were first used their TBO was typically 200 to 600 hours. Ouch
After they learned to operate them properly (essentially by running them lean of peak) they were often getting TBOs of 3,600 hours all with 1940s technology. Lycoming and Continental should hang their heads in shame.
RA
rutan around is offline   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 22:26   #17 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: rangaville
Posts: 2,291
Buckets of sh!t. Am I hearing that it's left up to the owner to fix overheating problems? Typical arrogant, useless Australian lack of service
Jack Ranga is online now   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 23:04   #18 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Perth - Western Australia
Age: 65
Posts: 1,111
Jack, I don't think Australian businesses can be singularly blamed for any leading position with regard to lack of service, or poor design in IC engines. The problem is endemic, and even the largest manufacturers are guilty of it.

There are two major problems here. One is, a possible lack of substantial testing before release of a product or an altered design. The problem with many small companies is the lack of resources to carry out adequate testing - the problem with many large companies is the desire to rush products into the marketplace without adequate testing, and before all the "bugs" are sorted.

The end-user then becomes the "test-bed" for the product. This is annoying enough when the financial losses created by products failing to perform, hurt.
It's downright scary when your life is on the line - as with aviation products - due to those products failing to perform as expected.

The second problem is the standard company answer, that all product problems are the result of the end-user failing to operate, maintain, or repair the item as outlined by the manufacturer.

This is the easiest "out" in the world for all manufacturers, and one used by all of them, as well.
It is an answer driven by a (rightly-believed) fear of overwhelming ligitation following on automatically, from any admittance of a basic design fault.

It does not have to happen this way. If company managers agreed to a co-operative agreement to work with end-users, to identify and correct any faults perceived - without fear of company-destroying litigation - then the end result would be greatly beneficial to both groups.

However, I can't see this happening anytime soon - as the current culture of "deny everything, and blame the operator", is an endemic corporate culture, that has been in place for many decades - and it will take a brave manager or small manufacturer to buck the culture and prove that a co-operative effort is in the best interests of all.
onetrack is offline   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 23:26   #19 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Brisbane, Qld
Posts: 605
Has anyone got any ACTUAL Statistical Facts on the Jabirus? So far we all seem to be relying on either:
A. "My mate Barry from down the road and myself both own a Jabiru and they both had engine problems, so it can't be our fault!!"
OR
B. "Well, mine has run alllll the way to TBO and I'm running it perfect so it must be the fault of the people using them..."
Ixixly is offline   Reply
Old 19th Jan 2014, 23:55   #20 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 2,589
i thinks thats half of the problem, there is little in the way of facts, as once failed components are sent to Jabiru, they are never seen or heard from again. no reports, nothing.
Ultralights is offline   Reply
Reply
 
 
 


Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 11:39.


vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
© 1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network