One aspect of PPRuNe that I find perpetually entertaining is the ‘execute the messenger’ element. If we all just vilify anyone with whose opinion we disagree, reality will go away.
For the record, my personal view is that CASA, in its current structure and composition, is a waste of money and oxygen. Personally, I’d like to see it dissolved and rebuilt, from the ground up.
For those who share my view, we have a formidable handicap.
What do you think that handicap might be?
It’s none other than the rabid nonsense that passes for ‘debate’ and ‘comment’ on PPRuNe. It is so easy – so very easy – to make important people worry – worry a lot - by showing them the kind of material that gets posted on PPRuNe, in contrast to what tribunals and courts decide.
I’m just a wheelchair-bound, acne-stippled geek from Hicksville USA. The outcome makes no difference to me. Think about that.
Creamie...thanks. You've said it "the outcome makes no difference to me" That puts you really OFF the slate.
So,... never been a shaftee...you have never have to undergo the stress, financial and mental, trauma,etc.. of having to deal with the derogatory comments, lies and bullsh*t, and trumped up charges put about by CASA persons on a "kill" mission. If you aint been a victim then you have ABSOLUTELY NO idea.
Its not a very balanced equation when CASA control freaks with endless $$s for legals and courts, give combat to individuals, small businesses and pensioners even.
And for what end? Conform with the CASA "Code of Conduct", about fairness, integrity, honesty, CAC Act , MLD and etc. do they? All for the Holy Grail of "safety"
Dont make me weep tears of piss..FFS its all about the bully boys/whole rotten system showing who's fcuking the cat. And the taxpayer pays their bills ... and the outcome for aviation is,?... well, they really dont give a sh*t one way or the other.
Tell an AWI who has made a wrong call to FCUK OFF... and all hell breaks loose. You then face criminal charges ... and they havent even done a frigging investigation yet, but their whole sh*tshow is full of holes and the end result is SFA/Nix /Nought. At GREAT cost to the taxpayer. Who cares? CASA doesnt give a rats. But I do. And as I and others have said before, the totally outrageous punitive approach to aviation "safety" just DOESNT work.
Its just madness for this vital industry to be continually suffering the Butsons, JQ, and others. For why??? Something has to give.
CP you have the right to comment, BUT. You DONT have the RIGHT (?) experience. We do, unfortunately.
LeadSled, “I think you will find that what he means is: If you read the relevant aircraft AFM, and CAR 138, and CAO 40.1 (and the CAAP in asymmetric training) and "between the lines" of the transcript, Butson was invited by said FOI to conduct training contrary to the requirements or recommendations of all of the above, in a manner that Butson (and any other sane person) would say constituted as an unacceptable risk”,
that doesn’t answer my question – my question is and I will try and spell it out loud and clear for you (and Kharon), WHAT EXACTLY DID THE FOI DEMAND OF POLAR AS FAR AS MULTI-ENGINE TRAINING IS CONCERNED? Simply making vague statements quoting flight manuals, CAR 138, a CAAP and an even vaguer statement of “reading between the lines” doesn’t answer my question...
I'm still waiting for your answer too Kharon....
VH-MLE
ps I also agree with Creampuff that CASA is well past its use by date and in need of major overhaul, but that has or had absolutely no bearing at all on the Polar matter in my view.
CP - It is so easy – so very easy – to make important people worry – worry a lot - by showing them the kind of material that gets posted on PPRuNe, in contrast to what tribunals and courts decide.
Insha'Allah - Oh, I hope so.
The beauty part is that within the hallowed halls of the tribunal lies the solution. Proof positive in lovely, publicly available transcript; all the porkpies, half truths, misdirection, misleading etc. etc. All there; and, the best part – it's all said under oath (which is Criminal). It's all too easy when you think it through.
Just get down and dirty, do some reading and expose the misleading, lying monkeys for what they are. They all sign oaths at the end of a statement, prove the statement to be a fib and Bingo; you win a chocolate frog on the bag a bad man stand. It's actually like shooting fish in a barrel, once you get the hang of it. A signed confession (or two) in every statement. .
Send your proof off to a decent Polly near you and worry the crap out of them. THEY SHOULD BE WORRIED – a lot more than they appear to be.
Wait just a while longer for my response CP; not too long now.
The beauty part is that within the hallowed halls of the tribunal lies the solution. Proof positive in lovely, publicly available transcript; all the porkpies, half truths, misdirection, misleading etc. etc. All there; and, the best part – it's all said under oath (which is Criminal). It's all too easy when you think it through.
Just get down and dirty, do some reading and expose the misleading, lying monkeys for what they are. They all sign oaths at the end of a statement, prove the statement to be a fib and Bingo; you win a chocolate frog on the bag a bad man stand. It's actually like shooting fish in a barrel, once you get the hang of it. A signed confession (or two) in every statement. .
Send your proof off to a decent Polly near you and worry the crap out of them. THEY SHOULD BE WORRIED – a lot more than they appear to be.
Make sure you post a copy of the damning material here, too. It’s apparently too easy (when you think it through), so we should soon see a veritable tsunami of identified “porkpies, half truths, misdirection, misleading etc. etc”. Standing by …
And I’m still waiting for someone to identify a matter in which counsel for CASA was a QC. Remember: “Proof positive in lovely, publicly available transcript.” It’s all public record …
Things like shagging, picking your nose, scratching your ass (or nuts), are private pleasures, great fun to do; but no fun to watch.
Public executions hardly ever happen these days, (although there are a couple I would pay good money to watch). However in our 'civilised' society even the humble chooks are slaughtered far away from the sensitive souls who eat 'em.
No mate, slaughter is not a sport for the gentle, sensitive, litigious public to see. Only a select few will understand the Pain and suffering of the dammed. I reckon my seat on the ferry boat is secure.
And I’m still waiting for someone to identify a matter in which counsel for CASA was a QC. Remember: “Proof positive in lovely, publicly available transcript.” It’s all public record …
Creamy this bloke (below) seems to have those fancy letters behind his name....I could be wrong but wasn't he also the lead 'legal eagle' at the Hempel inquest??
Quote:
Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE
Budget Estimates May 2006 Transport and Regional Services Question: CASA 15 Division/Agency: Civil Aviation Safety Authority
Topic: Mr Ian Harvey QC Hansard Page: 39 (23/05/06) Senator McLucas asked:
Senator McLUCAS—My next question is tangentially related to this issue. Can you tell me what work CASA has employed Mr Ian Harvey QC to undertake over the last, say, five to seven years? Mr Gemmell—We can. Mr Harvey has done quite a bit of work for CASA. He very commonly represents us. I have come across him representing us in the Federal Court and indeed in coronial inquiries and various things. So he has done quite a bit, be we would have to check all the details of that. Senator McLUCAS—If you could just give me a list. I hope that is not too difficult to find. Mr Gemmell—No, we could find that. Answer:
Over the past 5 years, Mr Ian Harvey QC has appeared for CASA in the following matters:
In the Administrative Appeals Tribunal
• Cole v CASA
• Brazier v CASA
• Aerolink v CASA
• Schutt Flying Academy v CASA
• McWilliam v CASA
• Polar Aviation v CASA
• Mulligan v CASA
• Heavylift v CASA
In the Federal Court
• Layton v CASA
• CASA v Boatman (led by P. Brereton QC)
• Byers v CASA
• McWilliam v CASA (led by R. Tracey QC)
• CASA v Hotop (led by P. Brereton QC)
Coronial Inquests
• Police Air Wing (Western Australia)
• Toowomba (Queensland)
• Hamilton Island (Queensland)
Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE
Budget Estimates May 2006 Transport and Regional Services Other Court Proceedings
• Sydney Heli-Scenic v CASA (NSW) (led by G. Hilton SC) Mr Harvey has also provided training for CASA on five occasions. Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Budget Estimates May 2006 Transport and Regional Services Question: CASA 16 Division/Agency: Civil Aviation Safety Authority
Topic: Mr Ian Harvey QC – CASA’s Preferred Barrister
Hansard Page: 39 (23/05/06) Senator McLucas asked: Senator McLUCAS—It would be quite simple to find. Would you describe Mr Harvey as CASA’s preferred barrister? Mr Gemmell—No. My understanding is that we have a contractual arrangement with a panel of suppliers who we roll around with. Mr Harvey on occasions would be representing our insurers. It would be a decision about representation coming from both CASA and our insurers, and it depends on who our insurers are. I am not sure the description ‘preferred’ would be correct, but I can check that to see if any part of the contract does indicate that. Answer:
Mr Ian Harvey QC is one of a small number of barristers with demonstrable experience and expertise in aviation-related matters of the kind in which CASA tends to become involved. In litigation before the courts and before coronial inquests, CASA’s insurers and external solicitors determine who will appear on CASA’s behalf. In many of those cases, Mr Harvey is their choice on the basis of his recognised ability and expertise. Before the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, CASA’s own in-house counsel appears for CASA in about half of all matters brought. Mr Harvey has appeared in a majority of the remainder of those matters in recent years. As is customary with barristers, Mr Harvey is self-employed and is engaged on a fixed daily rate in each matter briefed.
Or doesn't this chap count...AA seems to like him he even got the nod to train up Ops staff who may be exposed to legal action in the courts!
Mr Harvey has also provided training for CASA on five occasions.
Yeah Gobbles one wonders what can be taught to some of these geriatric old farts!
Maybe the truth is Creamy is resentful of this Harvey QC bloke. Harvey keeps on getting to feed from the trough while poor old Creamy keeps missing the gig...even when he is the regulatory guru...yeah I can imagine how that would hurt!!
What gets me with this legal lark is you get a bloke like Harvey teaching numnuts from CASA how to 'not stuff up' in a court of law, then in the next breath Harvey QC is batting for the other side (no pun intended) or the other 'respondent' or assisting the Coroner. Maybe I am missing something but how is that not a conflict of interest??
Ive stated in the past when CASA bums want to do a dump on ya ,they can turn a wormcast into a MT Everest of crud. Been the there, had that.
Great to have that confirmed by Gobbles that they're in the BNE basement. Must be a Pic of Mt Everest on the wall.
That must be the training ground, where the FOIs, SAWIs and Legal Eagles get together and nut out ways of converting the little nuggets into something else entirely.
Or is it just different strokes for/by different folks.?
Another JQ type scenario in train in effing FNQ. Does the tropical heat addle brains or something.? WTF.
The vic get a accusatory letter threatening his licence and approvals. Its another 'worm cast' and worse...pointing the finger at the wrong person... and the mothers havent even done a thorough investigation yet.!! Sounds very familiar to me.
Shoot first and try and sort it out later after its all turned to shite. But the vic has to go get legals at great expense...and since I doubt very much this will go anywhere near a courthouse...he'll be out of pocket. For what ffs....CASAs incompetancy training.? And being a serial, recalcitrant MLD denier CASA wont pay his bills either.
FBA* needed to remove "investigations" from CASA entirely.
This wrong-headed part of the Hydra DEFINITELY has to get the chop. Investigations must be done by a SKILLED independant agency.
*Fcuking big axe. We wish.
