Who can demand to look at ASIC cards?
Thread Starter
Who can demand to look at ASIC cards?
I have done a search to no avail ...
Can anyone state what identity, qualifications etc a person needs to have if a person says that they have the authority to do an ASIC check airside? For example, if they drive an airport car does this give them authority? If they have an ASIC themselves is this sufficient authority?
This also begs the question, what happens if say someone refuses to show an ASIC to someone who asks?
Legislation would be preffered but opinions welcome ...
Can anyone state what identity, qualifications etc a person needs to have if a person says that they have the authority to do an ASIC check airside? For example, if they drive an airport car does this give them authority? If they have an ASIC themselves is this sufficient authority?
This also begs the question, what happens if say someone refuses to show an ASIC to someone who asks?
Legislation would be preffered but opinions welcome ...
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Hey Aussie Bob. Aviation security act 2004.
Under the act several categories of personnel may stop and ask aviation participant in a security restricted area for their ASIC. In relation to ARO's, most if not all have had to become qualified security guards in order to comply.
Aviation Transport Security Act 2004
The various powers are in the documentation, but here is some of it,
Division 4—Airport security guards
90 Simplified overview of Division
This Division gives airport security guards a limited power to restrain and detain persons. Airport security guards may only detain a person until the person can be dealt with by a law enforcement officer and their ability to use force is restricted.
Regulations must establish requirements to be met before a person can become an airport security guard.
91 Airport security guards
(1) An airport security guard is a person who:
(a) satisfies the training and qualification requirements and any other requirements prescribed in the regulations for airport security guards; and
(b) is on duty at a security controlled airport; and
(c) is not a law enforcement officer; and
(d) is not an eligible customs officer.
(2) The regulations must prescribe the following for airport security guards:
(a) training and qualification requirements;
(b) requirements in relation to the form, issue and use of identity cards.
(3) The regulations may prescribe the following for airport security guards:
(a) requirements in relation to uniforms;
(b) any other requirements.
92 Airport security guards’ power to physically restrain persons
(1) An airport security guard may physically restrain a person if:
(a) the airport security guard reasonably suspects that the person is committing, or has committed, an offence against this Act; and
(b) the airport security guard reasonably believes it is necessary to do so in order to:
(i) ensure that a person who is not cleared is not in a cleared area or a cleared zone; or
(ii) maintain the integrity of a landside security zone, a landside event zone, an airside area, an airside security zone or an airside event zone.
(2) If a person is restrained under subsection (1), the airport security guard may detain the person until the person can be dealt with by a law enforcement officer.
(3) In exercising a power under subsection (1) or (2), an airport security guard must not use more force, or subject a person to greater indignity, than is necessary and reasonable.
Aviation Transport Security Act 2004
The various powers are in the documentation, but here is some of it,
Division 4—Airport security guards
90 Simplified overview of Division
This Division gives airport security guards a limited power to restrain and detain persons. Airport security guards may only detain a person until the person can be dealt with by a law enforcement officer and their ability to use force is restricted.
Regulations must establish requirements to be met before a person can become an airport security guard.
91 Airport security guards
(1) An airport security guard is a person who:
(a) satisfies the training and qualification requirements and any other requirements prescribed in the regulations for airport security guards; and
(b) is on duty at a security controlled airport; and
(c) is not a law enforcement officer; and
(d) is not an eligible customs officer.
(2) The regulations must prescribe the following for airport security guards:
(a) training and qualification requirements;
(b) requirements in relation to the form, issue and use of identity cards.
(3) The regulations may prescribe the following for airport security guards:
(a) requirements in relation to uniforms;
(b) any other requirements.
92 Airport security guards’ power to physically restrain persons
(1) An airport security guard may physically restrain a person if:
(a) the airport security guard reasonably suspects that the person is committing, or has committed, an offence against this Act; and
(b) the airport security guard reasonably believes it is necessary to do so in order to:
(i) ensure that a person who is not cleared is not in a cleared area or a cleared zone; or
(ii) maintain the integrity of a landside security zone, a landside event zone, an airside area, an airside security zone or an airside event zone.
(2) If a person is restrained under subsection (1), the airport security guard may detain the person until the person can be dealt with by a law enforcement officer.
(3) In exercising a power under subsection (1) or (2), an airport security guard must not use more force, or subject a person to greater indignity, than is necessary and reasonable.
Thread Starter
Many thanks Fieldmouse.
So reading this is would not be impolite to request an airport security guard to produce identification as per 2B???
The reason I ask is a person purporting to be a security guard at my local pedantically asks to see, read and note down my ASIC card details most times I see him. Last time this happened I pointed out that he had done this less than a week ago and politely asked for his credentials. He showed me his ASIC card and he pointed to his car and became irate.
My sincere hope is that this matter will quietly pass but it has the potential to become a battle of egos.
So reading this is would not be impolite to request an airport security guard to produce identification as per 2B???
The reason I ask is a person purporting to be a security guard at my local pedantically asks to see, read and note down my ASIC card details most times I see him. Last time this happened I pointed out that he had done this less than a week ago and politely asked for his credentials. He showed me his ASIC card and he pointed to his car and became irate.
My sincere hope is that this matter will quietly pass but it has the potential to become a battle of egos.
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Aussie Bob
To be honest it is a bit of a grey area. I have heard that the licence requirement has been relaxed for ARO's but can't quote the legislation I'm sorry. At a minimum the guy should identify himself by name and position before he requests anything from you. A call to airport management mightn't hurt either. Can I ask if the port is security controlled or security screened? Makes a real difference to the 'intensity' of the checks.
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Yep, sounds like he has 'issues'
If push comes to shove his ASIC means nothing either, an ASIC isn't an airside pass, it has no meaning other than to show that the holder has been subject to a security check. Its just a method smart ARO's use to sort out the wheat from the chaff when airside. If you are displaying one at our port, and you seem to be in the right place, the ARO's will barely look your way.
Good luck man.
Good luck man.
If he's "pedantically" noting down details, I'm sure it's not out of personal interest. The guy's got a job to do to pay his bills too and I can see his employer wanting to see evidence of who's about, although the job can be done without the attitude.
Eg.
"Morning, just need to grab your ASIC details for the records if I could please, thanks Boss." (with a smile)
Vs
"Where''s your ASIC pass?" (with a brick wall attitude)
I know which one would get friendlier compliance.
Catch more flies with honey.
Shame some security guards (power trippers) don't realise this.
I know, I worked in security for ten years including a year at an airport.
Then again, if it wasn't for 9/11, we wouldn't have all these dramas.
Eg.
"Morning, just need to grab your ASIC details for the records if I could please, thanks Boss." (with a smile)
Vs
"Where''s your ASIC pass?" (with a brick wall attitude)
I know which one would get friendlier compliance.
Catch more flies with honey.
Shame some security guards (power trippers) don't realise this.
I know, I worked in security for ten years including a year at an airport.
Then again, if it wasn't for 9/11, we wouldn't have all these dramas.
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G'day Aussie Bob
under aviation law anyone conducting aviation activities in an aviation sensitive area-AKA airside on a security controlled airfield, does have the power to stop and enquire of anyone who is not displaying an ASIC or enquire if that person does have an ASIC if they feel it necessary, but enquiring is as far as it goes and if the person needs to removed from the area. The airport operator (ARO's)needs to be notified and even call the police if deemed neccesary.
And this argument has been raised many times as many who operate a maintenance facility, flying school etc feel that they are not police. Fair call. The airfield I work from has a great aviation community and notifies if they see something/someone in a place they should not be.
Now the power of ARO's with Aviation Security Licences as mentioned comes from the Aviation Transport Security Act of 2004. The Regulatory Body is the Office of Transport Security which is a part of the Deptmnt of Infrustructure & Transport (DoIT) formerly DOTARS.
Being an ARO myself I have gone through the security training.
And just as an example if it was an Airport ARO that approached you and questioned you and during the comms you asked to see his his licence than as far as I am aware he/she has to show you under law.
If that person is not a Licenced Security Officer but works in the capacity as an ARO and asks you the same question, his powers then come from the Authority of the airfield owner operator and should provide you with a phone number and name to verify that, if one was to pursue that avenue. An ARO just shoving an ASIC Card under your nose really doesn't cut the mustard.
And Makeithappencaptian
You are right, you get along a hell of a lot better if the person making the enquiries drops the attitude. Yes in this role the ARO's job is to make sure legislation is being complied with and protect the airport owners asset. Still they are not the Fed or state Police (that is why we call them if there is a major issue) so respect is earned not demanded as the ARO's and all who use the airfield have to co-exist
And I have seen this too, give a person a security licence and they think they instatntly become cops. Just doesn't work!
More info can obtained by contacting the OTS via www.infrastructure.gov.au
In fact we just happen to have in Toowoomba WED 29th Feb this week a representative from OTS coming up to give an information session 6pm at the Darling Downs Aero Club social function room, so if anyone is in the area and would like to share in this you are more than welcome.
you can contact me, and I need to know no later than Monday 27th (Tomorrow)close of business day- [email protected]
Cheers
Scott
under aviation law anyone conducting aviation activities in an aviation sensitive area-AKA airside on a security controlled airfield, does have the power to stop and enquire of anyone who is not displaying an ASIC or enquire if that person does have an ASIC if they feel it necessary, but enquiring is as far as it goes and if the person needs to removed from the area. The airport operator (ARO's)needs to be notified and even call the police if deemed neccesary.
And this argument has been raised many times as many who operate a maintenance facility, flying school etc feel that they are not police. Fair call. The airfield I work from has a great aviation community and notifies if they see something/someone in a place they should not be.
Now the power of ARO's with Aviation Security Licences as mentioned comes from the Aviation Transport Security Act of 2004. The Regulatory Body is the Office of Transport Security which is a part of the Deptmnt of Infrustructure & Transport (DoIT) formerly DOTARS.
Being an ARO myself I have gone through the security training.
And just as an example if it was an Airport ARO that approached you and questioned you and during the comms you asked to see his his licence than as far as I am aware he/she has to show you under law.
If that person is not a Licenced Security Officer but works in the capacity as an ARO and asks you the same question, his powers then come from the Authority of the airfield owner operator and should provide you with a phone number and name to verify that, if one was to pursue that avenue. An ARO just shoving an ASIC Card under your nose really doesn't cut the mustard.
And Makeithappencaptian
You are right, you get along a hell of a lot better if the person making the enquiries drops the attitude. Yes in this role the ARO's job is to make sure legislation is being complied with and protect the airport owners asset. Still they are not the Fed or state Police (that is why we call them if there is a major issue) so respect is earned not demanded as the ARO's and all who use the airfield have to co-exist
And I have seen this too, give a person a security licence and they think they instatntly become cops. Just doesn't work!
More info can obtained by contacting the OTS via www.infrastructure.gov.au
In fact we just happen to have in Toowoomba WED 29th Feb this week a representative from OTS coming up to give an information session 6pm at the Darling Downs Aero Club social function room, so if anyone is in the area and would like to share in this you are more than welcome.
you can contact me, and I need to know no later than Monday 27th (Tomorrow)close of business day- [email protected]
Cheers
Scott
Last edited by Scottw; 25th Feb 2012 at 20:49.
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Aussie Bob,
Although i can understand your point of view the ARO has a job to do and that job is to make sure the local airport rules, acts, legislation's are all being adhered to because if they are not then there is a fair chance the ARO will then be in strife for not enforcing them. ASIC checks are a pain in the backside but it is something that has to be done regardless of what the thoughts are of the officer doing it or the person being checked.
I am familiar with the incident your talking about and i understand your questioning but i also understand why the ARO became upset. But i dont not wish to enter in to it in a public forum.
This is an extract from a Airside Conditions of Use and Policies which in my reading of it gives ARO's at this airport the authority to perform ASIC checks.
"Aviation Security Identification Cards (ASICs) are to ensure only authorised persons
access the Security Restricted Area (Airside). An ASIC must be obtained for all staff who
will be working on the airside of the airport. ASICs must be valid and be properly
displayed by all staff on the outside of their clothing, at waist height or above, at the front
or the side of the person’s body and with the front face of the card clearly visible.
Random ASIC checks are performed daily by XXXX Airport Operations Duty
Supervisor and other agencies.
To enter airside, lease holders and operators must ensure their staff are displaying an
ASIC and have authorised duties to perform on the airside. Visitors, having legitimate
business on airside may be issued with a Visitor Identification Card (VIC), but must be
directly escorted by the holder of a valid ASIC at all times."
if you would like to discuss this further drop me a PM
my 2 bobs..
Although i can understand your point of view the ARO has a job to do and that job is to make sure the local airport rules, acts, legislation's are all being adhered to because if they are not then there is a fair chance the ARO will then be in strife for not enforcing them. ASIC checks are a pain in the backside but it is something that has to be done regardless of what the thoughts are of the officer doing it or the person being checked.
I am familiar with the incident your talking about and i understand your questioning but i also understand why the ARO became upset. But i dont not wish to enter in to it in a public forum.
This is an extract from a Airside Conditions of Use and Policies which in my reading of it gives ARO's at this airport the authority to perform ASIC checks.
"Aviation Security Identification Cards (ASICs) are to ensure only authorised persons
access the Security Restricted Area (Airside). An ASIC must be obtained for all staff who
will be working on the airside of the airport. ASICs must be valid and be properly
displayed by all staff on the outside of their clothing, at waist height or above, at the front
or the side of the person’s body and with the front face of the card clearly visible.
Random ASIC checks are performed daily by XXXX Airport Operations Duty
Supervisor and other agencies.
To enter airside, lease holders and operators must ensure their staff are displaying an
ASIC and have authorised duties to perform on the airside. Visitors, having legitimate
business on airside may be issued with a Visitor Identification Card (VIC), but must be
directly escorted by the holder of a valid ASIC at all times."
if you would like to discuss this further drop me a PM
my 2 bobs..
Last edited by gav_20022002; 26th Feb 2012 at 00:38.
Aussie Bob was the gentleman concerned an ARO or a security guard.
I am interested because I have found almost all ARO's to be very pleasant and easy to work with. They are generally interested in all things aviation and are knowledgeable about their airport and it's workings.
Some security guards, on the other hand, are often aggressive and overly officious. I have to say that many of them are professional and pleasant to deal with. However when you get a difficult security person it can get out of hand very quickly.
My advice would be to lodge a formal complaint if you really think this person was unreasonable.
Security guards, like coppers, have a very important and often difficult job, however I do not think that we have to accept unreasonable behaviour from them.
I am interested because I have found almost all ARO's to be very pleasant and easy to work with. They are generally interested in all things aviation and are knowledgeable about their airport and it's workings.
Some security guards, on the other hand, are often aggressive and overly officious. I have to say that many of them are professional and pleasant to deal with. However when you get a difficult security person it can get out of hand very quickly.
My advice would be to lodge a formal complaint if you really think this person was unreasonable.
Security guards, like coppers, have a very important and often difficult job, however I do not think that we have to accept unreasonable behaviour from them.
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gav
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Although i can understand your point of view the ARO has a job to do and that job is to make sure the local airport rules, acts, legislation's are all being adhered to because if they are not then there is a fair chance the ARO will then be in strife for not enforcing them. ASIC checks are a pain in the backside but it is something that has to be done regardless of what the thoughts are of the officer doing it or the person being checked.
Thread Starter
Aussie Bob was the gentleman concerned an ARO or a security guard.
Unlinke others have alluded, there was no real confrontation and there probabaly never will be.
Well put Fieldmouse ...
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Requiring a person to state their name and address or to produce identification is an invasion of the person's privacy.
Therefore, before any exercise of such powers under legislation occur, the person exercising that power generally must state their name and produce their authorisation to do so. A member of the police force who is in uniform is exempt from the requirement to produce the authorisation but must still give their name and station if requested.
I note that a testing officer appointed by CASA to enforce AoD testing may require the production of identification which may be an ASIC or a passport.
kaz
Therefore, before any exercise of such powers under legislation occur, the person exercising that power generally must state their name and produce their authorisation to do so. A member of the police force who is in uniform is exempt from the requirement to produce the authorisation but must still give their name and station if requested.
I note that a testing officer appointed by CASA to enforce AoD testing may require the production of identification which may be an ASIC or a passport.
kaz
curiouser and curiouser....
interesting topic because on another thread someone said that his ASIC wasn't accepted as an ID. So it just means someone has trawled thru the records to see what crimes you have committed to date, and once cleared, you get a nice red card to allow you airside at RPT airfields ?.
And yet... CASA tarmac trawlers, at non-RPT fields use it as an ID card, which it patently isnt. Ive got/had a card too, but it doesnt make me a CASA employee (mouth wash out for the horrible thought)...just that it proves I'm not now thought of as a security risk at RPT airports.
So ..what is it?
Inconsistent behaviour throughout, with security personnel, AWIs, FOIs etc is imho, due to egos/ personal traits (eg aggro ex-cops) and the indistinct regs.
Those that come on 'hot and heavy' need to be reminded who pays their wages, and what they are really there for. To prevent terrorism.???
Unfortunately there is always the odd bully/control freak that just wants you to tug a forelock, and let you know who's actually in charge of the cat.
Remember... beware of all countries that end in ...stan.
And we live in Regulatastan !!
And yet... CASA tarmac trawlers, at non-RPT fields use it as an ID card, which it patently isnt. Ive got/had a card too, but it doesnt make me a CASA employee (mouth wash out for the horrible thought)...just that it proves I'm not now thought of as a security risk at RPT airports.
So ..what is it?
Inconsistent behaviour throughout, with security personnel, AWIs, FOIs etc is imho, due to egos/ personal traits (eg aggro ex-cops) and the indistinct regs.
Those that come on 'hot and heavy' need to be reminded who pays their wages, and what they are really there for. To prevent terrorism.???
Unfortunately there is always the odd bully/control freak that just wants you to tug a forelock, and let you know who's actually in charge of the cat.
Remember... beware of all countries that end in ...stan.
And we live in Regulatastan !!
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Aroa
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So it just means someone has trawled thru the records to see what crimes you have committed to date, and once cleared, you get a nice red card to allow you airside at RPT airfields ?.
You also have to be complying with the individual airports Transport Security Plan, which you aren't allowed to see, as to where you can and can't go.
By all means keep discussing this here, because I can personally, categorically, and unreservadly, promise you, that the OTS heirarchy know about this forum and read it religiously. And remember, if joining a terrorist organisation, wait until AFTER your ASIC is approved.
