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Old 21st Sep 2011, 00:44   #21 (permalink)
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All Mustangs had a retractable tail wheel.

The prototype

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Old 21st Sep 2011, 03:38   #22 (permalink)
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As the original P51 the aircraft was called Galloping Ghost. The name lived on in the re-incarnation. I doubt the Phoenix will rise again.
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Old 21st Sep 2011, 04:46   #23 (permalink)
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An interesting link.

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Old 21st Sep 2011, 06:51   #24 (permalink)
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The roll rate factor needs mention in that the wings were a good 10ft shorter than stock, ailerons half the stock size.
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Old 21st Sep 2011, 08:19   #25 (permalink)
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I guess you are correct about the Data plate,I did think it strange that a racing P51 would have a fixed tail wheel.....extra drag...I was just quoting what this other person stated after seeing the photo.
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Old 21st Sep 2011, 20:09   #26 (permalink)
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Ok thats the tail wheel, now where did the pilot get to?
I seem to remember something about these race birds use gas bottle for gear up and Huey Newton for down?

Last edited by tinpis; 21st Sep 2011 at 21:03.
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Old 21st Sep 2011, 22:53   #27 (permalink)

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So what you trying to get to, tinpis?

The photos are not real?

The trim tab didn't come off?

The accident didn't happen at all, it's all a big hoax?
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Old 22nd Sep 2011, 00:33   #28 (permalink)
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Reno air show crash kills nine people - Framework - Photos and Video - Visual Storytelling from the Los Angeles Times

Baswell ,read some the comments

If the photo of the plane pointed down just before impact is real I will be very surprised. If you look at other photos of this plane in flight (on the pilots web site, for example) in EVERY photo you can see the pilot's helmet. Even if he had a heart attack and died he would be leaning up against the glass. There is nowhere for him to be. Plus to get this angle the photographer would have to have been far away from the stands with a very powerful telephoto lens. It is perfectly from the side with no blur whatsoever. He probably could not have gotten the other photo of the plane upside down from the same location. I also searched for "Times Valley Union" and did not find any news organization with Tim O'Brien as a photographer.
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Old 22nd Sep 2011, 01:03   #29 (permalink)
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Although the photo has all the appearances of having been altered, (initially I thought it was) it has been discussed widely on other forums and it is generally accepted as genuine. In other views looking down into the cockpit the pilot's white helmet can be seen. Recent reports are indicating that the pitch-up was in excess of 20G (!). Even if that is grossly exaggerated, it may account for the apparent absence of a pilot in the photo in question. As for the photographer, not everyone with a camera works for a newspaper.

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Old 22nd Sep 2011, 01:33   #30 (permalink)
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Are you guys talking about this incident?

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Old 22nd Sep 2011, 03:05   #31 (permalink)
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Maybe if they did a search with the newspapers correct name they would get more hits. It's Grass Valley Union not Times Valley Union. And there must be at least dozen posts and blogs out there describing the 1998 "Voodoo" P51 incident where the pilot, Bob Hannah, blacked out after a trim tab failure. As he put it when he came to his head was pinned to floor and it took a lot of effort to get back upright. I'm sure it's probably an exaggeration but in the context of the photo it makes sense.
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Old 26th Sep 2011, 18:30   #32 (permalink)
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I would guess that for efficiency they race with an aft C of G, so that the net lift on the tailplane is upwards. That would mean that if trimmed for S&L, loss of a trim tab would result in a sudden and severe nose up trim change. But I am still puzzled why it then rolled on its back before pulling through.
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Old 26th Sep 2011, 19:37   #33 (permalink)

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The clipped wing Mustangs raced with almost full nose down elevator trim.
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Old 26th Sep 2011, 20:51   #34 (permalink)
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Nicely explained by Professor Chuckles at that other pilot reporting site
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Old 27th Sep 2011, 04:31   #35 (permalink)
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Probably rolled because of torque..or tiny "clipped" ailerons..or someone resting against the column....etc
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Old 27th Sep 2011, 05:45   #36 (permalink)
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The Memorial service was a day or 2 ago in Reno, Death toll 11 inc pilot and 70 injured many seriously with missing arms and legs etc. Some still in hospital.
A damn horrible tragedy.
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Old 27th Sep 2011, 05:54   #37 (permalink)
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Probably rolled because of torque
Have seen this said a few times on different forums. It rolled the wrong way. More than likely, the incapacitated pilot unknowingly interfered with the controls.
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Old 27th Sep 2011, 07:23   #38 (permalink)
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11 deceased.....that's just awful, we humans risk it all at times without fully understanding the risks, such is aviation.
It wouldn't take much of a control stick deflection to roll the machine at those speeds.I'd say it's a fair bet that the pilot was in some way incapacitated as one would need to be 100% alert & in control of such a high performance beast during the whole of the event.
Possible outcome: Trim tab failure, sudden movement by way of excessive G's created by that failure that caught the experienced pilot unawares inhibiting his abilities momentarily resulting in a few seconds of uncontrolled flight.

I now wonder what extra safety measures will be put in place for future shows?
Can't bring those deceased back but perhaps we can learn from this tragic event so their lives are not entirely wasted.

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Old 27th Sep 2011, 12:48   #39 (permalink)
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There is no evidence that the age of either pilot or aircraft had any bearing on this event.
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Old 27th Sep 2011, 15:13   #40 (permalink)
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* *Telemetry downloaded from Galloping Ghost revealed an 11g pullup, fuel flow
interrupted on the way up, and then the engine restarted when fuel flow resumed
at the top of the arc. *The aircraft was making 105 inches of MP (Manifold
Pressure) on the way down.

* *Subject: : Galloping Ghost crash

* *Ok... here's the skinny on the accident.... *A P-51 normally has two trim
tabs.. one on each elevator... this one had one and other one was fixed in
place.. He was warned about the forces being put on that one tab. *It failed..
He had at least a 10G load when the plane pitched up from the loss of the trim
tab and he went "nighty night" and probably never woke up.

* *Here's the “theory” of the crash from experienced racers.

* *In 1989 this type of thing happened to another pilot but he lived to tell
the story. When flying a P-51 at 450+mph you need to have full nose down trim to
keepthe plane level. The elevator trim tab broke off and the aircraft imediately
went in to a 10G climb, confirmed by the G-meter. The pilot came to, from the
sudden blackout and realized he had slipped through the shoulder harness and was
looking at the floor of the airplane. He was able to reach the throttle and pull
it back to slow down and was able to recover and land.

* *Photo oneis the airplane taxiing, note the pilots head in the canopy.

* *Fast forward to 2011

* *Photo twois typical oil canning as a result of the tremendous torque these
engines put out at high power.

* *Photo three is a photo of GG upside down with a missing elevator trim tab.
Note all you see is the back of the pilots head indicating he is being forced
down in the cockpit.

* *Photo four is a view of the left side nose down with the tail wheel extended
and no view of the pilot. The tail wheel is held up by hydraulics only with no
mechanical uplock, thus indicating a high G-force causing it to extend.

* *Photos five and six are from the left side prior to impact, note no view of
the pilot and the tail wheel extended.

* *Photo sevenis the debris just after the crash. To the right of center above
the crowd it appears to be the wing with the

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