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 The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

 10th Nov 2010, 00:58 #1 (permalink) Thread Starter   Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Sydney Posts: 188 What do pilots cost? Some mental arithmetic (doesn't even need a whiz wheel or FMC) can quickly get us some idea of what pilots cost as a percentage of revenue. These numbers are rounded so VERY approximate and don't really relate to any particular airline or aeroplane, but the answers may surprise some. Consider a 10 hour long-haul sector carrying 400 pax. Assume the sector seats cost an average \$1000; Then total revenue is \$400,000. Assume 3 pilots with salaries and on costs are costing \$480,000 p.a. and the crew flies 1000 hours p.a.. Then the cost of the 3-pilot crew is \$480 per hour or \$4,800 for that sector. The pilot cost as a percentage of total income is then 4,800/400,000 * 100 = 1.2%. Thought of in another way, each pax is paying (\$4,800/400) = \$12 towards the pilot costs out of their total fare of \$1,000. What are the numbers for your favourite type of aeroplane? happy landings Seabreeze
 10th Nov 2010, 01:17 #2 (permalink) Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: 41,000' Posts: 274 Someone was doing the IQ test last night
10th Nov 2010, 01:42   #3 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,395
Quote:
 What do pilots cost?
Depends if they are happy with the deal they're getting or if they feel they're getting shafted. The Jetstar guys might be a little more expensive today than a year ago!

 10th Nov 2010, 02:08 #4 (permalink) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Brisvegas Posts: 2,209 Or put another way, a pilot costing \$200,000 per annum who flys about 800 hours per year costs... 200,000/800 = \$250 per hour Now tell me how much the fuel is per hour? Better still what is depreciation on the airframe worth per hour? Oh, no depreciation because you lease, okay what is your lease cost per hour? You can soon see that paying pilots less makes SFA difference in the scheme of things. Much better to pay the pilots and CC well and have them look after your business for you, save fuel here, time there etc Pushing pilot pay down is pure ideology.
 10th Nov 2010, 02:20 #5 (permalink) Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Aus Posts: 39 If you do some similar numbers for a SAAB, about \$6 per fare covers the pilot wages. It also means pilots' wages could double if everyone payed \$6 more, a bit drastic, but it'd be nice...Now ask each passenger if the want to pay \$120 and have a 19 year old pilot straight out of the academy, with about the same experience as a P plater up front, or pay \$126 dollars to have an experienced crew, I think I know which option most pax would choose.
 10th Nov 2010, 02:33 #6 (permalink) Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Brisbane, Qld Posts: 1,002 That would make buying tickets online a lot more interesting Would you like checked in luggage for \$40? Untick Would you like travel insurance for \$10? Untick Would you like an exit row seat for \$30? Untick Would you like an experienced crew for \$6? Untick Talk about the cheap option!!
 10th Nov 2010, 02:38 #7 (permalink) Join Date: May 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 430 need to factor in Check and trainers wages into the total cost of line pilots as well as all other training and accommodation, meal, uniform transport and additional costs. Granted its probably only 30-50k per pilot so the principle is still the same but it's not "that simple". Anonymous and icarus still raise good points. I may use them in our up coming EBA negotiations.
 10th Nov 2010, 03:35 #8 (permalink) Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Mel-burn Posts: 4,944 The Vic Police do the calculation really well for producing a qualified copper. They just say: "If it cost \$9,800,000 to run the academy this year on the P&L and we shipped out 87 sworn officers, it cost \$112,643 per recruit." You could do the same for pilots but you'd need to work out the wages including supervisors etc.
10th Nov 2010, 03:41   #9 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aus
Posts: 590
Also need to factor a reserve crew allowance for each flight. The figures quoted at 400 pax I assume is a 747 as a VOz 777 only carries 350, of which you could only guarantee a 70-75% load factor for international ops and an A380 crew would be paid a lot more.

So revenue on an average load of 75%, 777 would be closer to \$265,000.

Adjusted for reserve availability crew cost would be at least \$600p/h or \$6000 the sector and they are now 2.2% of income.

Factor in Flight atendants, engineering and support staff and labour still comes in at less than 20% of costs.

It doesn't matter what percentage of the equation you are most airlines make poor profit compared to income measured in tens of millions against billions changing hands. If it was that easy to charge a few extra dollars and make millions it would be done already. And the moment you do someone starts a new cheaper airline to undercut you claiming they are doing you a service. Fuel surcharges work because all the airlines do it simultaneously.

Quote:
 If you do some similar numbers for a SAAB, about \$6 per fare covers the pilot wages.
Are those numbers on a full SAAB or the average load factor for Rex which is closer to 60%?

Another way to put it is Rex made \$24 million profit last year, if there are 300 pilots and you paid each an average of \$10K more than it would cost at least \$3.3 million (including super) \$20K \$6.6 million and so on... at \$20k each you would still have made \$17million profit.

Last edited by 43Inches; 10th Nov 2010 at 03:57.

10th Nov 2010, 03:52   #10 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,395
Quote:
 Would you like an experienced crew for \$6? Untick
They're already doing this when they buy their ticket in many instances.

Senator Xenophon knows this.

Not too many inexperienced (if any) Captains and FO's over at QF are there..?

As they say: "You get what you pay for".

We're talking about crew, then there is the rest of the operation and the buffers that go or don't go with it.

"I'm of ta tha goldie on a \$49 cheapie ha ha ha..laughn". They think.

Interesting thread from Rumous and News :FAA panel proposes that airline co-pilot standards be raised

One post from A37575:
Quote:
 Comprehensive well written article in Business and Commercial Aviation Sept 2010 entitled "Statistics Point the way to Safety." Extracts (edited for brevity) pertinent to the proposed FAA rule to lift airline copilot standards: 1. Pilots with less than 4000 hours total time and 300 hours on type are involved with two-thirds of all turbojet/turbofan accidents and incidents. 2. Tyre failures, particularly during takeoff roll were another leading cause of mishaps suffered by business jets. 3. Another main reason for pilot error accidents is that more inexperienced pilots are entering aviation and should get twice per year training to get up to speed. 4. Today's pilots have become too dependent upon cockpit automation, relying too much on the flight guidance systems to control the aircraft during virtually all phases of flight. Technology has produced "Children of the Magenta Line" - pilots who cannot fly without an operable GPS or FMS, along with a full color moving map. 5. Autopilots and flight directors have taken away from airmanship. Over-reliance on ops manuals have taken away decision making. 6. Pilots need to spend more time hand-flying the aircraft, especially in gusting wind conditions and/or when landing on contaminated runways. 7. Hands-on flying and risk assessment is much more important than total time in a log book. .................................................. ................................................. Speakers at last week's Asia Pacific Aviation Training Symposium at Kuala Lumpur thought otherwise. In fact they accented more emphasis on automation as a means of reducing the loss of control accidents and advocated less training on engine failures and more accent on LOFT, CRM, TEM and en-route diversion planning in the simulator. It was considered by one speaker that low hour pilots were no problem providing they were expert at automation. This view was certainly at odds with the FAA view on low hour inexperienced pilots in jet transports. The basic premise at the APAT meeting seemed to be that the incredible reliability of modern aircraft systems meant pilot manual flight intervention of a perceived automatic problem has caused eventual loss of control.
Its been around for a while but worth a read. See what that costs you.

 10th Nov 2010, 05:13 #11 (permalink) Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: somewhere in Oz Age: 47 Posts: 852 Qantas is a publicly listed company. I'm sure if you got their annual reports out you could do some pretty comprehensive studies on aggregate passenger-mile costs of various things. Myself, I can't be particularly bothered, since I'm not about to buy shares. (which all Pilots could do to experience if they enjoy a wee dram of capitalism instead of the usual order of a pint of die-hard communism)
 10th Nov 2010, 10:01 #12 (permalink) Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Asia Posts: 2,354 It's not quite so simple. Management looks at the TOTAL bill for pilots pay, X millions depending on the size of the company. If he can save say 10% of that amount it's a considerable sum of money. If he gets 10% of what he's saved he's done well for himself. Pilot pay is a soft target compared to getting the Arabs to reduce the fuel price. Last edited by Metro man; 10th Nov 2010 at 15:52.
 10th Nov 2010, 10:06 #13 (permalink) Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Brisbane, Qld Posts: 1,002 Isn't it true that Staff Wages make up the largest percentage of the money just about any company spends? Once had a man with quite some managerial experience tell me that "Any idiot can look for the most expensive part of a business which is generally staff and reduce that cost, it takes a good manager to look at everything else and find innovative ways to reduce THOSE costs without endangering the overall product and/or delivery!"
10th Nov 2010, 10:33   #14 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,395
Quote:
 fuel
There you have it metro man.

2000kg/hr or 2100kg/hr

6000kg/hr or 6100kg/hr

Most pilots have no idea what the most minuscule change in fuel flows can do to the bottom line. It is in no uncertain terms massive.

A long term happy pilot force will create miracles. The first Airline to understand this will see millions of dollars suddenly appear.

I'm not holding my breath.

10th Nov 2010, 12:17   #15 (permalink)

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: PPrune.au
Posts: 42
Quote:
 A long term happy pilot force will create miracles. The first Airline to understand this will see millions of dollars suddenly appear.
Why exactly? I dont see many pilots flying around going "lets shove them leavers forward a bit more, that will teach them! Mwahahaha!" Im sure none of us lower our standards/operate outside of SOP just to 'show them'.

 10th Nov 2010, 13:06 #16 (permalink) Join Date: May 2002 Location: dubai Posts: 946 "What do pilots cost?" In wages, not enough actually.
10th Nov 2010, 13:58   #17 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,138
Quote:
 What do pilots cost?
At some airlines, pilots actually pay to fly. At those places, pilots are not a cost item but a revenue earner, the profit of which goes straight down to the bottom line.

 10th Nov 2010, 16:41 #18 (permalink) Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: QLD Posts: 342 I agree pilots should be paid more. However we as pilots / employees are to blame for the salaries being low. The airlines mentioned Qantas, Jetstar, Virgin and REX all have have no crewing problems. I'm not talking about pilots p!sssing and moaning about not having enough pilots but the last time flights were cancelled due lack of crew? All the airlines above have hold files as in pilots waiting or wanting to work for the current cash and I would be willing to bet that most on those hold files would agree to work for less Airlines are employers and answer to share holders and owner they will always want larger profit margins and low crewing cost is included. Nothing will change unless pilots stop applying to work these job for that cash hence this will drive the salary up... simple supply and demand. We are the problem
 10th Nov 2010, 21:36 #19 (permalink) Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 2,395 Sure SOPs yes but varying degrees of effort to keep the taps closed start the APU later etc. All adds up.
 10th Nov 2010, 21:45 #20 (permalink) Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: planet earth Posts: 414 \$100,000,000 in price fixing fines = 400,000 pilot hours