oldrotorhead

The purpose of this thread is to stimulate some discussion about the legalities, rather than the practicalities, of NVFR operations during the "Fire Season".
I don't want to turn it into a general thrash about NVFR in general and whether it's generally safe or otherwise, especially in SE aircraft, or whether you can legally do it without a visible horizon etc, etc. Let's just assume that you can generally do NVFR Ops so long as you remain in VMC which of course is the same for day and night (Except for Helicopter VMC which is not permitted at all at night)
A quick look at virtually every Area Forecast at the moment will indicate that VIS is affected by the Fires with words to the effect of "Areas of smoke below 9000ft, locally thick near fires" in the general part of the forecast to "VIS 2000 in thick smoke, 3000 in RASH and 7km in smoke haze, etc etc"
Now, leaving aside other Met issues such as the obvious, like cloud, when you consider the implications of AIP ENR 1.10, para 1,2,4 for example, which states"CHTR, AWK and PVT operations under the VFR at night must not be conducted unless the forecast indicates that the flight can be conducted in VMC at not less than 1000ft above the highest obstacles within 10nm either side of track", is this bloody smoke a limiting issue or not?
(NOTE that this area to be considered is different to that defined for consideration for LSALT purposes in GEN3.3 -17 para 4.10(b) which talks about the area within a 10nm radius of the aircraft etc)
So... can you legally go NVFR with the smoke issues on the forecast? They're not gunna go away for months and months I reckon. Lot's of folks out there still doing it anyway so are they legal or not?
Any discussion to be had?
Cheers, ORH

Jay Bo

Im thinking if you can't maintain minimum vis of 5km and the smoke covered the entire route it would be illegal

oldrotorhead

No doubt about that. Got to always be in VMC. However, I guess the question is whether the forecast really means that the VIS is likely to be say 2000m or whatever (less than 5K) across every square inch of the AREA. Today for example, (haven't) checked them all by the way) that could be all of Area 44, 40 and 20). It's been that way for the last few weeks, every day, by the way.
ORH

Horatio Leafblower

How do you avoid areas of smoke at night?

They put numbers on the visibility to make it as clear-cut as possible. If the forecast vis is less than 5000m it ain't VMC... pretty clear-cut I would have thought?

Aimpoint

I guess you're all carrying alternates in the day to aerodromes without a TAF too, given the viz is below the alternate minima on the area forecast.

Jay Bo

It's interesting that most of the TAF in the Arfor 20 show CAVOK for most airports including the critical locations so I can see how this can become confusing in trying to work out where the smoke actually is or exists at all

NIK320

Without a TAF or someone to verify it, how do you know there is not a fire near your destination?
Id prefer to carry the alternate fuel than make that assumption based on absolutely nothing.

Horatio Leafblower

Of course, all this jibber jabber begs the question: how the **** did we ever fly VFR (day OR night) in the Territory between August and December?

MakeItHappenCaptain

With alternates (or TAFs). Easy if you're IFR.

Seriously though,

Jay Bo and Nik
I hope you are not insinuating that you are allowed to pick and choose Area Forecast applicability based on TAFs?
At night, can you say the TAF for an aerodrome on the other side of my area says not enough cloud for an alternate, therefore I can disregard the cloud that is forecast below my LSALT (any cloud is enough to cause a problem if you fly into it...easy to do on a moonless night) for the rest of the area?

Admittedly, this is more of a NVFR scenario. During the day, you see the area of reducing vis to either avoid it or turn back, bit harder to do at night.

catseye

Have a think about this from a fire management perspective.

Are we talking about bucketing or monitoring a fire at night. Worth doing on the urban interface with lots of cultural lighting if houses blah blah at risk. Probably reasonably safe in the Lane Cove National Park in the middle of Sydney or at the recent fire at Enoggera in Brisbane surrounded by cultural lighting.

Something out of Bulga into Wollemi National Park. No cultural lighting and often cloud forming at night in the smoke. Forget it. Better ways of monitoring by fixed wing anyway.

Remember the ground troops don't like working fires at night either.


Most experienced Met's will tell you that vis in smoke is a stab in the dark anyway. For those that have not seen it vis can go from CAVOK to 100 metres or less in an instant.

Why would you you be out attacking the middle of a national park on a dark night?????

Ogsplash where are you. your thoughts??

NIK320

Not at all captain.

I'm responding to aimpoint who appeared to be leaving a sarcastic comment, (hard to tell in text) indicating he wouldn't carry the alternate for the area forecast low vis during the day.

If the TAF indicates better than the area forecast, It only applies to the 5nm surrounding the aerodrome. There is still the potential of encountering the poor conditions at some point along the route, or at the destination if it does not have a met observation/forecast.

havick

It will depend on your ops manual, exemptions and approvals and whether you are flying with night vision goggles or not.

Too many variables in play to give a definitive answer.

(edit: post refers to fire fighting operations)

oldrotorhead

Well the thread drifted a fair bit as they do but just to try to keep it alive a bit longer - it had nothing really to do with the Fire Season (other than that's when the smoke is really bad) and absolutely nothing to do with fire fighting or other ancillary fire operations at night and nothing at all to do with NVG operations. So far as I'm aware, they can only be done in VMC anyway.
I'm no further ahead as to whether it's OK to go at night when there's a mention of smoke on the Area Forecast as originally described?
ORH

b_sta

I would say yes, as long as you can be certain that you'll be clear of any smoke thereby maintaining VMC, which is obviously going to be difficult to do (to say the least) unless you're certain that the smoke is localised, which the ARFOR would need to state obviously, and you're in a very well lit area, ie. over a city, which could help you spot any reduction in visibility early. Don't think you'd be going anywhere if the smoke was spread across the entire area.

Aimpoint

No sarcasm, was just wondering whether guys jumping up and down about not flying NVFR when there is smoke on the area forecast are applying the same sort of thought process to other types of flight.

My view about flying NVFR when smoke is on the forecast - use some common sense. You won't be flying anywhere night VFR in QLD for the next few months if you didn't go because there is smoke somewhere on the area forecast.

Not that you could legally apply it, but a while ago someone posted a link to satelitte shots of the fires around the place. This could be a starting point to build some situational awareness. I think it was called sentinel or something...

MakeItHappenCaptain

So b_sta and aimpoint, let's look at this from a cloud viewpoint. It is a moonless night (you can't see the cloud until all the lights below you disappear, then you're in it...oops...too late). If there is any cloud forecast below your lsalt on the arfor, then you cannot depart. During the day you have the option to see the cloud and avoid, but not always possible at night.

If we apply the same logic to visibility, (you don't know you're in the crap until you're in the crap), thence you cannot legally depart if there is any chance vis will be below 5km. TAFs cannot remove or allow selective application of the restriction as they only apply to a 5nm area around the issued location. What about everywhere in between?

A favourable TAF will only remove an alternate requirement at the destination, not make the entire flight legal.

Aimpoint

Another suggestion is to get a technical elaboration from the BoM (number in the ERSA). There were a few nights when cloud was forecast, but after a quick call to the BoM is was confirmed it was no where near the route I was flying.

Smoke is an interesting topic, however, and this thread has made me think more about it. How high does 'thick' smoke travel? 1000ft, 5000ft or 20000ft? I guess it all depends on a number of factors.

How do the NT pilots conduct their NVFR during the dry season when the land is being burned all season? I'm sure they're being told to "just go", but what do the local FOIs think?

Deaf

Can be in smoke and:
No Cloud at all
8000m vis (look down and that is the woop woop silo 5 mile away)
hence VMC despite no horizon over about 500 ft agl

Day easier to fly on dials. Night, no moon no chance unless on dials.

MakeItHappenCaptain

IFR. The only reason you would choose to fly VFR would be due to equpment unserviceabilities. You can't do pax carrying NVFR without a current CIR (assuming we, in referring to the NT pilots, are talking about commercial ops).

morno

Many instances of SE charter pilots heading back from a charter NVFR (no pax, so no need for a current CIR, just a NVFR Rating), I used to do it when I could to get some night experience.

Or even freight only ops.

morno