If you would like a career with Virgin, take what they offer. If you would rather stay where you are and want to risk missing out on an opportunity, its your choice. Remember if you turn it down hoping to get a better second offer, with the introduction of group seniority delaying your start date could affect your career significantly. Also with an EBA looming, joining after could see a lower salary as opposed to joining before. The last EJET course of 12 most were syd base from the offer of employment. By the time they were checked to line, all had their base of choice, SYD, MEL and BNE. If anyone wants a BNE base, take an EJET slot. The days of holding out for a BNE 737 f/o slot are gone. There are 4 year EJET f/o's still waiting BNE 737 f/o spots. I would say if you accept a Perth position, there is so much movement and expansion on the horizon that it would only be temporary. As Atlas says when the music stops you want to have a seat. When I joined recruitment stopped for 12+ months. Remember there are alternatives, Jetstar, Tiger, Alliance, Skywest. Red Q
The only thing slowing pilot numbers down are a lack of airframes at the moment. Whilst they don't grow on trees, they will slowly come along, and with them a requirement to crew them. While it may be a risk to hold out for a potentially better offer, that offer will come in some way shape or form. I know guys that couldn't have taken the pay hit an ejet offer presented them, and held off for the next round. Fortunately for them, the 737 was the next offer, so for them it worked out. I know this was the case for several of those on the November intake last year (know a few of them personally)
PER seems to be the next provider for slots, however MEL and SYD are still short of crews as well.
With respect to numbers in BNE, it is common knowledge the port is over crewed. However, if future command slots in MEL and SYD (and possibly PER) are taken up by current BNE F/O's, to maintain the balance of Cpt/FO numbers surely those guys and girls will be replaced? Doesn't make sense to have more captains than F/O's in a particular port, would be a crewing nightmare I'm sure!
Anyhow, I'm no expert on the matter, just my 2c worth.
To those expecting/hoping/praying for an offer, I wish you luck and success
Some things in life are more important than just accepting any base so you can fly a jet.
Good luck with that!
Only in 2012 could we have a conversation discussing whether an applicant will accept a First Officer position with an Australian Airline or whether he will stand back and wait for said Airline to recognise his undoubted abilities and offer him a better base and better type.
Trouble is I have to train these 'applicants with attitude' who think from day one they are in the wrong seat, wrong type and wrong base in that order.
Trouble is I have to train these 'applicants with attitude' who think from day one they are in the wrong seat, wrong type and wrong base in that order
Whilst behaviour like that is absurd, I hate to say this but that's part of your job champ! If that includes a section on 'pulling your head in', then so be it. I think it's appalling for anybody to start with an employer and think they are owed something, and I guess for that very reason, training isn't for everybody. Doesn't say much for the selection process anyway if this sort of person is regularly finding their way through the system?
I don't quite get the aggro expressed towards someone if they chose to accept a position based on what is best for them though. If a company is happy to give somebody that choice, good luck to them should they go down that road. If more applicants had asked a few questions or been a little more discerning with which positions they took with respect to type, base, employer, conditions etc, in the past, perhaps the industry may not be in the shape it is today! An overly simplistic comment I know, but no less relevant.
No aggression, just a raised eyebrow that an applicant can apply, be accepted, and turn down an offer AND then expect that a further offer will be made.
By all means make the decision but don't be lulled into some false sense of security that there is no one next in line with a whole lot more enthusiasm and is willing to accept the job. More often than not the door closes whilst you are looking away!
If an applicant is not willing/able to move now then it probably spells bigger trouble when that elusive Command is offered further down the track.
Disgruntled long term First Officers living where they want to live are no happier than disgruntled junior Captains not living where they want to!
I guess the premise behind my comments was assuming the person making that decision has done so knowing the consequences of their actions. I suppose it is that very point that is sometimes ignored when the final outcome doesn't meet the initial expectation.
My advice to younger guys and girls getting close to the airline game:- decline airline job offers at your own peril. The door may close very quickly and not re-open again for a long time for any number of reasons. Don't be posting on PPRuNe in 10 years about regreting your decision.
Hold out for a better deal-someone will recognise your talents!
All of the intake pilots that I have trained have had a great attitude and are very grateful of their job. To a man( and woman), they have all made a fantasic effort and are highly motivated to do well. They are all happy to be on the B777 and understand that it will be some years before they get a window seat in Domestic.
Ad Astra, I understand the gen-Y intake issue, but it is not limited to to that group. At a previous company, a guy (gen x) who had just checked out as FO asked me when he could expect a command. I told him that he would be ready in maybe 4-5 years and with a couple of thousand more hours, pick the brains of your favourite captains, learn what you can, absorb what is useful etc etc..he cut me short and said that the company minimum was 500 hrs on jets and that if he didn't get an offer shortly after, he would leave. Fine, I told him. All this was from a guy who had either been sacked or was about to be sacked for failing to CTL at his previous company after 240 hrs of line training(how we had come to take him, I will never know.. ). The guy was a walking disaster area and needed to be watched over like a hawk. Thankfully, he is now in a position where he cant do much harm.
Another guy (Baby-boomer) who had come as an intake FO had plenty of hours in his log book, but no heavy jet experience. Demanding the next command in the company, he felt that his vast previous experience on GA twins somehow absolved him from learning the Policy and Procedures manual. CRM for this bloke amounted to him standing his ground and "positively asserting himself" even when he was shown references in the manual as to where he was wrong. No understanding of fuel or flight planning policies and no ability to navigate in the vertical plane completed his sum talents as a pilot. He even tried his hand at creating his own command positions by being a snitch but shot himself in the foot but exposing his own lack of understanding to the Chief Pilot. Eventually he got a DEC on a small turbo-prop but then checked out as an FO.
So guys, if you think that you should hold out for a position that suits you unique talents, then fine, do it The airline world is expanding so fast that you wont be flying that Metro or Kingair for long. In the near future VA will be paying for your type ratings and maybe even to help you move. There is even talk of getting commands in around 3 years again. My advice is to hold off and get what you deserve
Only in 2012 could we have a conversation discussing whether an applicant will accept a First Officer position with an Australian Airline or whether he will stand back and wait for said Airline to recognise his undoubted abilities and offer him a better base and better type.
Trouble is I have to train these
'applicants with attitude' who think from day one they are in the wrong seat, wrong type and wrong base in that order.
Jesus wept!
I think you read my comments and situation incorrectly. I don't expect the company to give me a better offer, I was just wondering what the process was. For the record I am very happy in my gig, but was just thinking about options for the future.
Yes - some things are far more important than landing a gig flying a jet with Virgin. Let's see, in the last 12 months I've had a child in intensive care for a significant period and another very sick family member. So no, I'm not going to put my career and shiny jet syndrome ahead of more important things. If that means I'm stuck in turbo props for the rest of my career, then so be it. I'll do what's best for family first, as I'd rather be whinging on PPRuNe about lost opportunities in 10 years time than miss out on the other things life has to offer.
Sorry, I'm not the applicant with attitude that you refer to. But I'll take the opportunity that's right for me at the right time. If that means 20 years to a jet command, then so be it.
Today I also received the email you mentioned (my interview was last week). It specifically mentions the role of a domestic first officer as well, but I don't know if that rules out the 777 or not. The weird thing is, I have heard that Virgin has already contacted at least one of my references so why would they send me the e-mail afterwards??
It does say in the email that you have "progressed to the next stage of the recruitment process" so it definitely is a good sign!!
Likely 737. Very little E-Jet movement. Only possibility of E-Jet movement is to fill FO's who've moved to 737 in Perth. However been told overstocked on E-Jet anyway.
I would seriously recommend taking the first offer (barring family issues, etc). As mentioned, gaining employment prior to a new EBA is generally beneficial, and there is ofcourse the matter of seniority down the track. Any base transfers are going to be filled by existing employees before joe bloggs off the street.
Some don't want to get "stuck" on the "regional jet" but personally I think the e-jet offers a fantastic work/ lifestyle balance and a nice variety of flying, and you will only get "stuck" when the music stops. Of course when the music stops, you won't get that second offer for your boeing anyway...
I have been wondering, wouldn't most 737 vacancies be filled internally by ejet FO's instead of external applicants? Or are most of the ejet guys waiting out for a command? I find this interesting because surely many people don't like being bypassed by new hires, if they wanted to fly the 737.... the case is/was very similar where I currently work! Of course, this all assumes that the ejet guys want to fly the 737!
The company will offer you a position on a type and at a base of their choosing. This will be an opportunity for you to learn more about the profession of air pilot. What you have learned in the past will hope fully support you in this process.
Whether you go on the Ejet, the B737 or the B777, you will be joining a great crew. There is a lot of experience in the company and whatever your role, it is a continuation of your apprentiship. it would be fair to say that to a certain extent, you will be learning to fly again. Remember that if you like being a captain in your current role, that it will be about 10 years before you see a command at virgin. That would give you plenty of time for base/type transfers.
If you don't think that you can learn from being on the B777 or Ejet, knowing that the company operate these types, why apply in the first instance? Would you say out loud in the interview that you will not except certain bases/and or types? An offer to go on the Ejet or as a CzFO on the B777 is a great opportunity for you to learn more skills and develop attitudes that will enhance your standard of professionalism. If you don't want this, the you probably aren't worth employing.
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Havic--The company pays. They also pay for the B777 type rating if you are an intake pilot.
Anthill, thanks.. It's just out of curiosity as I'm a helo driver and was wondering if airlines pay for everything like they do with us in the rotary world.
). The guy was a walking disaster area and needed to be watched over like a hawk. Thankfully, he is now in a position where he cant do much harm.
2 months difference there. 
