Is it legal to carry extra Avgas in a jerry can?
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Didn't an aircraft carrying fuel containers to outback destinations recently go missing? Not pre-empting the reasons but it really doesn't sound like the safest way to carry fuel. DGR's are there for a reason, the category of operation doesn't make it safer(or more dangerous). I guess you could argue legalities till the cows come home, unless it's daylight savings of course
, at the end of the day do you think it is the safest option?
As an aside, if you are a commercial pilot, who has DGA, are you bound by these regs even if on a private flight?
And FDTK, havent empty fuel tanks alledgedly exploded due to the high vapour/low ignition theory? Hope you gave it a good clean out.
, at the end of the day do you think it is the safest option?As an aside, if you are a commercial pilot, who has DGA, are you bound by these regs even if on a private flight?
And FDTK, havent empty fuel tanks alledgedly exploded due to the high vapour/low ignition theory? Hope you gave it a good clean out.
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Yes fair enough, probably illegal in a lot of countries.
What would you do in the case of a medevac and you were in the situation that you needed that extra fuel?
All I am trying to advise is if you are faced with the case of having to, do it properly. Done it on a lot of occasions over the years in Africa. Oh and BTW empty fuel containers are more dangerous than full containers, in a lot of circumstances. If you do have fumes in the cockpit, even flicking a switch could ignite the mixture.
What would you do in the case of a medevac and you were in the situation that you needed that extra fuel?
All I am trying to advise is if you are faced with the case of having to, do it properly. Done it on a lot of occasions over the years in Africa. Oh and BTW empty fuel containers are more dangerous than full containers, in a lot of circumstances. If you do have fumes in the cockpit, even flicking a switch could ignite the mixture.
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Legal vs good idea???
PVT - DG regs don't apply
I've been "dobbed in" to CASA on this one before and asked to provide a "please explain", they were happy with my explanation that it was a PVT op (I flew the bosses C210 and I was off duty as I wanted to get the stranded aeroplane back for another PVT flight I wanted to take) to get fuel to a stranded aeroplane. Case closed (except trying to prove that the w@nker who thought he was dobbing me in really just had an axe to grind).
I believe that CASAs acceptance of my explaination deems it a licit operation (i.e. not illegal if truly PVT ops). However, I would caution anybody considering this to thoroughly consider all of the possibilities (think about Mission Aviation's latest history and the fact that they do have a DG acceptance program, of course that's still a very open investigation). Definately seal the jerrys, there's no need to vent at normal altutudes (if you do "vent" then the atmosphere will just push in through the vent causing air to try and escape somehow... which will lead to atmospheric pressure pushing on the fuel which, if the nozzle is stored inverted so that it extends into fuel, will lead to fuel coming out). Remember that you still have to meet the requirements of CASR 92.175 Subparts 92.B and 92.C (much like operators having DG acceptance).
For god's sake though be careful and think it all through carefully. Legal and ideal are two seperate things (I'll do it a bit differently the next time... I won't allow them to "vent"
)
FRQ CB
I've been "dobbed in" to CASA on this one before and asked to provide a "please explain", they were happy with my explanation that it was a PVT op (I flew the bosses C210 and I was off duty as I wanted to get the stranded aeroplane back for another PVT flight I wanted to take) to get fuel to a stranded aeroplane. Case closed (except trying to prove that the w@nker who thought he was dobbing me in really just had an axe to grind).
I believe that CASAs acceptance of my explaination deems it a licit operation (i.e. not illegal if truly PVT ops). However, I would caution anybody considering this to thoroughly consider all of the possibilities (think about Mission Aviation's latest history and the fact that they do have a DG acceptance program, of course that's still a very open investigation). Definately seal the jerrys, there's no need to vent at normal altutudes (if you do "vent" then the atmosphere will just push in through the vent causing air to try and escape somehow... which will lead to atmospheric pressure pushing on the fuel which, if the nozzle is stored inverted so that it extends into fuel, will lead to fuel coming out). Remember that you still have to meet the requirements of CASR 92.175 Subparts 92.B and 92.C (much like operators having DG acceptance).
For god's sake though be careful and think it all through carefully. Legal and ideal are two seperate things (I'll do it a bit differently the next time... I won't allow them to "vent"
)FRQ CB
Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo; 30th Oct 2008 at 13:42. Reason: w@nker isn't a bad word
FTDK - a small generator is technically a DG, although if you are flying privately, you're generally OK as per the aforementioned regs. UN 3166 off the top of my head "engines, internal combustion." I write it a bit. 
There are some operations in the world that fly fuel around all the time without incident. Sometimes in 44g drums, sometimes in jerry cans.
A quick look at the Alaskan DG regs might open a few eyes in this country. In fact there are a lot of things in Alaskan aviation that open eyes.
There are some operations in the world that fly fuel around all the time without incident. Sometimes in 44g drums, sometimes in jerry cans.
A quick look at the Alaskan DG regs might open a few eyes in this country. In fact there are a lot of things in Alaskan aviation that open eyes.
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Stallie,
Yep sure they do things A LOT differently up there in Alaska, and northern Canada, and in every other remote area where they probably have to do things that little(or alot) differently to achieve the desired result, where no other realistic option may exist. Just don't forget to read the crash comics for those areas, it ain't all that easy.
DEW,
How many people do you want to put at risk, I am sure the authority on medivacs wouldn't put the rescuers' lives at risk for that. There will almost always be a much more effective, safer option,IMHO.
Yep sure they do things A LOT differently up there in Alaska, and northern Canada, and in every other remote area where they probably have to do things that little(or alot) differently to achieve the desired result, where no other realistic option may exist. Just don't forget to read the crash comics for those areas, it ain't all that easy.
DEW,
How many people do you want to put at risk, I am sure the authority on medivacs wouldn't put the rescuers' lives at risk for that. There will almost always be a much more effective, safer option,IMHO.
I'm O/S at the moment, and don't have Regs handy, but we used to carry spare JetA1 in plastic jerrycans quite legally, and relatively often.
I never found a metal jerrycan that had the correct approval stamp in Australia, only plastic ones: RACV in Melbourne sell them, and many of the discount car parts places. If it doesn't have the UN approval stamp, it's not legal
Most metal cans in Australia these days are Chinese copies, and are not suitable for aviation use 
The number of cans allowed is listed in the IATA DG Manual, max of 20lt per can, obviously securely strap them down in the cabin or the cargo section, and must be in a cargo area if being carried along with passengers. If a charter/pax flight, they are only allowed if covered in the Company Ops Manual and Company DG manual, and iaw those manuals.
I never found a metal jerrycan that had the correct approval stamp in Australia, only plastic ones: RACV in Melbourne sell them, and many of the discount car parts places. If it doesn't have the UN approval stamp, it's not legal
Most metal cans in Australia these days are Chinese copies, and are not suitable for aviation use The number of cans allowed is listed in the IATA DG Manual, max of 20lt per can, obviously securely strap them down in the cabin or the cargo section, and must be in a cargo area if being carried along with passengers. If a charter/pax flight, they are only allowed if covered in the Company Ops Manual and Company DG manual, and iaw those manuals.
Last edited by John Eacott; 30th Oct 2008 at 16:06. Reason: I didn't notice the Avgas title: sorry!
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Thanks John,
I find it hard to believe that you can carry a DG designated Cargo A/C only with Pax, however to answer the question of the origional poster I, and no doubt they, would welcome a definitive answer. I can relate my own experiences to transporting m/cycles that where designated cargo A/C only due the fact it had carried fuel previously, and had to meet requirements for transport. I guess my point is the safety side, and if there is a defined procedure to carry fuel safely, is there a REG to define how? I doubt it, as I doubt that any A/C has a definitive method of restraining such DG, unless as defined in the company manuals, hence the the need to conform to a DG/Cargo manual to comply. Man what a circle
I find it hard to believe that you can carry a DG designated Cargo A/C only with Pax, however to answer the question of the origional poster I, and no doubt they, would welcome a definitive answer. I can relate my own experiences to transporting m/cycles that where designated cargo A/C only due the fact it had carried fuel previously, and had to meet requirements for transport. I guess my point is the safety side, and if there is a defined procedure to carry fuel safely, is there a REG to define how? I doubt it, as I doubt that any A/C has a definitive method of restraining such DG, unless as defined in the company manuals, hence the the need to conform to a DG/Cargo manual to comply. Man what a circle
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Even if it was legal to do so, I wouldn't want to do such a thing myself. I'd rather plan my flight to where there is fuel available for the extra peace of mind and enjoy my flying without having the extra burden to worry about.
yowie,
The point you raise is the crux: you can carry a limited number of approved 20lt jerrycans on non pax flights, as Dangerous Goods, as long as they comply with the limits set in the IATA DG Manual, and as long as the carriage is iaw the Company Ops Manual/DG Manual if it is an AOC operation.
The actual number will have to be looked up by someone with access to the IATA DG Manual, I'm on holiday
The point you raise is the crux: you can carry a limited number of approved 20lt jerrycans on non pax flights, as Dangerous Goods, as long as they comply with the limits set in the IATA DG Manual, and as long as the carriage is iaw the Company Ops Manual/DG Manual if it is an AOC operation.
The actual number will have to be looked up by someone with access to the IATA DG Manual, I'm on holiday
Last edited by John Eacott; 30th Oct 2008 at 22:53. Reason: spulling
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For a passenger aircraft you can have up to 5 L per container, but it has to be in a metal or plastic container, which then has to be packed inside a fibreboard box, metal drum, etc. that has to be UN specification. If you just have a single packaging, i.e just the fuel in a drum or jerrican then you are restricted to a cargo aircraft, i.e. no passengers and you can have up to 60 L in the container, but it has to be UN specification. There's no limit on the number of individual containers on either a pax or cargo aircraft. This is the requirements for the IATA DGR
As has been provided CASR 92.175 provides relief for private operations and then 92.185 offers relief from the provisons of the DGR for operations within Australian Territory to allow for petrol and aviation turbine fuel to be in in steel or aluminium drums with a capacity up to 220 L on a cargo aircraft.
As has been provided CASR 92.175 provides relief for private operations and then 92.185 offers relief from the provisons of the DGR for operations within Australian Territory to allow for petrol and aviation turbine fuel to be in in steel or aluminium drums with a capacity up to 220 L on a cargo aircraft.
I think John Eacott is on the money with this one.
I had a conversation a few years ago with a very experienced pilot about this and his view was that on a private flight you could carry (I think) up to 3 x 20lt containers, properly secured etc.
The main point made was that they had to be UN approved and therefore NOT the metal ones. In fact also many of the plastic ones were also no good.
The only ones he suggested were ok were the black ones with the yellow funnel, two openings at the top and so on. He said these were the only ones (at that time) that complied with all the regs, and had the correct stamps on them.
I had a conversation a few years ago with a very experienced pilot about this and his view was that on a private flight you could carry (I think) up to 3 x 20lt containers, properly secured etc.
The main point made was that they had to be UN approved and therefore NOT the metal ones. In fact also many of the plastic ones were also no good.
The only ones he suggested were ok were the black ones with the yellow funnel, two openings at the top and so on. He said these were the only ones (at that time) that complied with all the regs, and had the correct stamps on them.
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Spare a thought for us chopper drivers that have to carry jerries in order to make the distance. Naturally we offload the cans when we have passengers 
I always fear not being able to get started again after refuelling in remote locations, especially when ferrying machines around alone.
The result? 100's of cans located around WA !
Where are you now Stallie ?
I always fear not being able to get started again after refuelling in remote locations, especially when ferrying machines around alone.
The result? 100's of cans located around WA !
Where are you now Stallie ?
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Back around the late 70's - early 80's when I was working in the bush, we relied on deliveries of fuel (diesel) by aircraft to run everything... generators, boilers, stoves/ovens, heating, tractors, the works. Fuel deliveries were once a month and a day hated by us all, despite the absolute necessity of it. By the end of the day, you would be covered in diesel, through your clothing, on your boots, through you hair... a stinking mess. Swannies couldn't be washed to get rid of the fuel -that would also wash out the natural lanolins, destroying the water-proofing and thermal insulation of the garment. The fuel just decayed over time, or was washed out by the frequent heavy rain! Diesel on the sole of your boots made life treacherous on wet rocks already slick with lichens and moss...
I digress. The deliveries were made by C-185 in 22gal drums. From memory, we carried around 10-12 per trip, with anything up to a dozen return trips a day. A tarpaulin was laid in the back of the aircraft with seats removed (only the pilot was seated!) and the drums wedged in tight so there was no movement in-flight. Not unusual for a passenger to be carried, perched on the top of the drums, folded up like a 1/2-open pocket-knife! You wouldn't get away with that today!!! The flight was about 10mins each-way, landing on a rough gravel strip, deep in a mountain valley. If anyone's interested, the strip could be found on Google Earth at about S44 47 19.61 E167 45 10.51
The day was complicated by the fact the delivery tanker could not decant directly to the aircraft, so the process was usually to fill a tank at a service station, decant into 44gal drums for the trip to the airport, decant again into 22gal for the flight, then decant yet again, usually into 44's, for distribution to the various necessary points around the site! A long day... And yes, all that decanting was necessary, for various reasons.
I'm not sure how it's done today, although I would be confident that the fuel is still flown in -although probably as a sling-load under a fling-wing!
Not entirely relevant to the question posed, but still a DG in an aircraft -and an interesting solution to an awkward problem! I'm sure tinpis and others would be able to relate similar experiences!
I digress. The deliveries were made by C-185 in 22gal drums. From memory, we carried around 10-12 per trip, with anything up to a dozen return trips a day. A tarpaulin was laid in the back of the aircraft with seats removed (only the pilot was seated!) and the drums wedged in tight so there was no movement in-flight. Not unusual for a passenger to be carried, perched on the top of the drums, folded up like a 1/2-open pocket-knife! You wouldn't get away with that today!!! The flight was about 10mins each-way, landing on a rough gravel strip, deep in a mountain valley. If anyone's interested, the strip could be found on Google Earth at about S44 47 19.61 E167 45 10.51
The day was complicated by the fact the delivery tanker could not decant directly to the aircraft, so the process was usually to fill a tank at a service station, decant into 44gal drums for the trip to the airport, decant again into 22gal for the flight, then decant yet again, usually into 44's, for distribution to the various necessary points around the site! A long day... And yes, all that decanting was necessary, for various reasons.
I'm not sure how it's done today, although I would be confident that the fuel is still flown in -although probably as a sling-load under a fling-wing!
Not entirely relevant to the question posed, but still a DG in an aircraft -and an interesting solution to an awkward problem! I'm sure tinpis and others would be able to relate similar experiences!
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Yup, never use plastic....Ive seen the results with a cropduster...not nice. Use metal, sealed, and somehow better if you connect a grounding cable to your aircraft structure. That should eliminate most static risks.
Tair
Tair
Yowie
There has yet to be anything here that is restricted to Cargo Aircraft only (except by large volume and assuming John was talking about AVTUR @60lt max for pax a/c, not AVGAS @5lt max for pax a/c).
UN3166, Engines internal combustion, flammable liquid powered: Class 9 Misc label, Pax& Cargo: No limit, Pkg Inst 900. ERG 9L. If the motorbike was flammable gas powered then it's CAO.
Fission
My oh my...when did you cross to the dark side?
As for me, in ML, but spending summers with Pygoscelis adeliae.
find it hard to believe that you can carry a DG designated Cargo A/C only with Pax
I can relate my own experiences to transporting m/cycles that where designated cargo A/C only due the fact it had carried fuel previously, and had to meet requirements for transport.
Fission
Spare a thought for us chopper drivers
As for me, in ML, but spending summers with Pygoscelis adeliae.
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If anyone's interested, the strip could be found on Google Earth at about S44 47 19.61 E167 45 10.51
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definitely was all of that DanArcher... you were committed to landing well before you could see the strip -back around Dumpling, no missed, just a sheer rock wall. Beautiful place, miss it badly.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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I knew a guy who used to carrying plane loads of explosives on private flights! Obviously tired of living
The only thing that would set any of that stuff off was a detonator being placed into a charge and then detonated. So as long as it was left alone, no worries!
Though being in almost constant contact with the stuff used to turn my fingernails yellow!
