RAAF pilots leaving
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Originally Posted by Runaway Gun
Before anyone else cries about the pay in GA etc, please remember that the boys and girls in the military (not just the aviators either) have to do alot of other dangerous and boring tasks. Some of them get shot at too, whilst defending Australia, and some of them die in accidents whilst in uniform.
"Boring"? Ever spent a couple of days sitting around a c*** camp in the middle of summer?
Blogsey you're a dreamer if you think a S/O at CX is a better deal financially than a FLTLT in the RAAF. S/O at CX is what you have to go through before you get a decent pay packet
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What happened to the spec aircrew scheme? Is it still around, and if so, is it working at all?
Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it...
Good post Capt SD.
At the end of the day what will change will be...nothing. This will sadly play out exactly as it has during every other previous pilot exodus. And Canberra knows it. The head shed will realise they have an actual or impending manning problem. The stimulus and ramifications of said exodus will be exactly, exactly the same as the one before it, and the one before that. DP(O) will start doing field research in the form of surveys
, group emails and road shows to try and find out [slap forehead here] why so many are upping stumps and taking their bat, ball and family to play elsewhere. They will ask questions like they have no idea why people would want to leave. They are leaving for the same reasons they always have, you bunch of mental titans! Posting turbulence, ground jobs, reduced flying with promotion, the exponential growth in **** peripheral distractions (not entirely the RAAF's fault, by the way...they are a Gummint organisation and have to give certain "training" etc).
It aint rocket surgery - a boggie has a ten year ROSO. He will typically start out single, hungry to work, fly and party hard. By the end of his ROSO he will have accumulated the trappings of growing up...a wife, and a couple of young kids who are in, or starting school. Said former boggie will still love flying military aircraft, but will now think a couple of things:
(a) where did my hair go?
(b) where did this 10 extra kilos come from?
(c) this MOVING AROUND EVERY 2/3 years, sometimes at short notice and not where I want to go IS ****TING ME AND MY FAMILY OFF.
The lifestyle the RAAF presents him is no longer compatible with his family life or goals. The other thing often missed is that over time society has changed, and THE WIFE MAY HAVE HER OWN CAREER. Getting bounced from East Coast to West Coast to Canberra back to East Coast in a couple of years is hell on kids in school and wive's career or domestic stability. What was acceptable to former generations isn't so now. To huff and puff and dispute this fact is irrelevant - it is fact, and people will vote with their feet.
This time around if rumours are to be believed it is a "perfect storm" for an airline exodus. A perusal of these boards suggests QF are looking for 500 (500!) SOs in the next few years, with VB and J* between them looking for probably more. Add Tiger, and Emirates and Cathay who all have massive expansion plans for those that are eligible and it doesn't look good for the posting whiteboard in DPO; particulary, as some one else observed, with all the new toys being delivered. That is exactly when you want to retain corporate knowledge, not bleed it!!!
All this was covered around the turn of the decade, but of course after 9/11 caused the airline industry to grind to a halt the RAAF was happy that the problem was solved. It's come back to bite them now!
Everyone knows what the solutions are, they are the same solutions that line pilots have been articulating for the last twenty years, which are the same solutions that successive generations of personel management have paid lip service to over and over again.
Nothing has changed, and nothing will change this time, but I would dearly love to be proved wrong.
At the end of the day what will change will be...nothing. This will sadly play out exactly as it has during every other previous pilot exodus. And Canberra knows it. The head shed will realise they have an actual or impending manning problem. The stimulus and ramifications of said exodus will be exactly, exactly the same as the one before it, and the one before that. DP(O) will start doing field research in the form of surveys
, group emails and road shows to try and find out [slap forehead here] why so many are upping stumps and taking their bat, ball and family to play elsewhere. They will ask questions like they have no idea why people would want to leave. They are leaving for the same reasons they always have, you bunch of mental titans! Posting turbulence, ground jobs, reduced flying with promotion, the exponential growth in **** peripheral distractions (not entirely the RAAF's fault, by the way...they are a Gummint organisation and have to give certain "training" etc). It aint rocket surgery - a boggie has a ten year ROSO. He will typically start out single, hungry to work, fly and party hard. By the end of his ROSO he will have accumulated the trappings of growing up...a wife, and a couple of young kids who are in, or starting school. Said former boggie will still love flying military aircraft, but will now think a couple of things:
(a) where did my hair go?
(b) where did this 10 extra kilos come from?
(c) this MOVING AROUND EVERY 2/3 years, sometimes at short notice and not where I want to go IS ****TING ME AND MY FAMILY OFF.
The lifestyle the RAAF presents him is no longer compatible with his family life or goals. The other thing often missed is that over time society has changed, and THE WIFE MAY HAVE HER OWN CAREER. Getting bounced from East Coast to West Coast to Canberra back to East Coast in a couple of years is hell on kids in school and wive's career or domestic stability. What was acceptable to former generations isn't so now. To huff and puff and dispute this fact is irrelevant - it is fact, and people will vote with their feet.
This time around if rumours are to be believed it is a "perfect storm" for an airline exodus. A perusal of these boards suggests QF are looking for 500 (500!) SOs in the next few years, with VB and J* between them looking for probably more. Add Tiger, and Emirates and Cathay who all have massive expansion plans for those that are eligible and it doesn't look good for the posting whiteboard in DPO; particulary, as some one else observed, with all the new toys being delivered. That is exactly when you want to retain corporate knowledge, not bleed it!!!
All this was covered around the turn of the decade, but of course after 9/11 caused the airline industry to grind to a halt the RAAF was happy that the problem was solved. It's come back to bite them now!
Everyone knows what the solutions are, they are the same solutions that line pilots have been articulating for the last twenty years, which are the same solutions that successive generations of personel management have paid lip service to over and over again.
Nothing has changed, and nothing will change this time, but I would dearly love to be proved wrong.
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Aircraft overstress
Griffinblack,
Mate, the regimental callsign gives you away a little too much.
I just want to know what aircraft you were flying at 120kts and 3 feet over fences.
Although I do agree with you about the excellent flying, there is no way we are authorised to fly below 10ft outside an approved TFA, and considering we fly with doors off, the acft vne is 100kts. I just want to know what bent frame you were flying so I don't have to fly it again...
Or are you one of those identified as a rogue pilot within the regiment?
Cheers
Mate, the regimental callsign gives you away a little too much.
I just want to know what aircraft you were flying at 120kts and 3 feet over fences.
Although I do agree with you about the excellent flying, there is no way we are authorised to fly below 10ft outside an approved TFA, and considering we fly with doors off, the acft vne is 100kts. I just want to know what bent frame you were flying so I don't have to fly it again...
Or are you one of those identified as a rogue pilot within the regiment?
Cheers
You beat me to it PAF.
Only 10 kilos?! Being a greeny vego doesn't count
. I remember when I went for that ADFA scholarship thingy waaaay back in year 11 and being told that I was underweight and needed to gain a few kilos. I certainly took that advice to heart.
Nice posts by CSD and DA. Pretty much sums it up.
I don't think that spec aircrew is necessarily the answer to this problem. Sure, for the 3 to 4 guys who get it it's great, but for everyone else that's 3-4 flying slots that they won't be getting for 5 to 10 years.
ruprecht.
Only 10 kilos?! Being a greeny vego doesn't count
. I remember when I went for that ADFA scholarship thingy waaaay back in year 11 and being told that I was underweight and needed to gain a few kilos. I certainly took that advice to heart.Nice posts by CSD and DA. Pretty much sums it up.
I don't think that spec aircrew is necessarily the answer to this problem. Sure, for the 3 to 4 guys who get it it's great, but for everyone else that's 3-4 flying slots that they won't be getting for 5 to 10 years.
ruprecht.
Double Asymmetric has perfectly summed up the exodus situation that faced the RAAF in the late eighties.
Oh ****! Look! Nothing has changed...
...and if you think anyone in the Military or the Department of Defence will do anything constructive about it, then think again.
Oh ****! Look! Nothing has changed...
...and if you think anyone in the Military or the Department of Defence will do anything constructive about it, then think again.
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With respect to Aavn, I understand army have no candidates for the upcoming course starting at Tamworth – perhaps someone else can confirm this? Army are bleeding QFI’s big time. They have lost several QFIs from Darwin and Oakey recently. They are also introducing ARH, MRH and perhaps more CH47 and training aircraft in the not too distant future. Interesting times indeed!!!
Wardog.
Your assumption about my callsign is correct. However, notwithstanding the doors on Vne, I have flown other types (not trying to give too much away here). And… I flew in an era when NB GND LVL was the norm. Now I am probably giving away too much info!
Remuneration. I too am not convinced a retention bonus is ideal. I do however believe remuneration needs to be competitive. I am not sure that the current market forces along with financial incentives continues to make ADF flying competitive. At the end of the day financial security is a very strong motivator and starting pay in for airlines may be below FLTLT (10 year Q and S) but it rapidly overtakes it. This in no may negates the previous comments about the continued desire of individuals to continue flying and the need for stability. My point being that remuneration needs to be competitive and I am not sure it remains so any more.
Wardog.
Your assumption about my callsign is correct. However, notwithstanding the doors on Vne, I have flown other types (not trying to give too much away here). And… I flew in an era when NB GND LVL was the norm. Now I am probably giving away too much info!
Remuneration. I too am not convinced a retention bonus is ideal. I do however believe remuneration needs to be competitive. I am not sure that the current market forces along with financial incentives continues to make ADF flying competitive. At the end of the day financial security is a very strong motivator and starting pay in for airlines may be below FLTLT (10 year Q and S) but it rapidly overtakes it. This in no may negates the previous comments about the continued desire of individuals to continue flying and the need for stability. My point being that remuneration needs to be competitive and I am not sure it remains so any more.
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Please take a swig of harden up ladies
What a lot of mind-numbing drivvel. I served in green for 20 years and every moment was worth bottling. I travelled overseas several times, although I have to admit Somalia is not on my list of places to revisit. I was posted far more often than the whinger who talks about postings every 2-3 years 
The RAAF doesn't want people to stay fying at PLTOFF level for 20 years plus, it needs young pilots who have a bit of mongrel in them and there is no shortage of people lineing up. RAAF consistently achieves its recruiting targets and a solid throughput of pilots out the other end is desireable. Like it or not, pilots are not the centre of the universe, I know, I know, they are the only people in the Defence Force who really understand the issues, it must be that forced accomodation in a 4-star hovel that caused them to see the light.
Civilianising the air force was the best thing the ADF ever did.
The RAAF doesn't want people to stay fying at PLTOFF level for 20 years plus, it needs young pilots who have a bit of mongrel in them and there is no shortage of people lineing up. RAAF consistently achieves its recruiting targets and a solid throughput of pilots out the other end is desireable. Like it or not, pilots are not the centre of the universe, I know, I know, they are the only people in the Defence Force who really understand the issues, it must be that forced accomodation in a 4-star hovel that caused them to see the light.
Civilianising the air force was the best thing the ADF ever did.
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Might be true Scorpio, but .....
Originally Posted by Scorpio69
I was posted far more often than the whinger who talks about postings every 2-3 years
The problem is retaining those folks who want to be given the chance to have some stability in their lives and become extremely proficient at the one job they're enjoying. ELSE THEY LEAVE!
Last edited by Like This - Do That; 13th Jun 2007 at 05:06. Reason: Shocking spelling errors and stylistic lapses.
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With respect to Aavn, I understand army have no candidates for the upcoming course starting at Tamworth – perhaps someone else can confirm this? Army are bleeding QFI’s big time. They have lost several QFIs from Darwin and Oakey recently. They are also introducing ARH, MRH and perhaps more CH47 and training aircraft in the not too distant future. Interesting times indeed!!!
Scorpio69,
The point went the other way - you missed it..................
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The vast majority of RAAF pilots leave the service to keep flying
The reality is everyone has their price. People don't move to Saudi for the lifestyle! Similarly people don't just go to Qantas to keep flying. After all being a second officer is basically a ground job in a mobile office for all the actual hands-on flying you get. Lots of people do it primarily for the money, whether it be in the long or short term. Many forgo promotion to stay a second officer and pick their trips.
The moving around every 2 to 3 years is definitely part of it, but again if the Air Force made it worthwhile financially, your spouse may not be so annoyed about his/her stalled career when the pay cheques roll in. Again this is what you see in the expat community in the UAE etc. Obviously everyone's circumstances are different, but a BIG pay rise would make a difference to retention rates.
So if it is so important for us to do those ground jobs, and move us around, and deploy us frequently and for long periods - the Air Force had better come up with a remuneration package that makes it worthwhile.
Would you stay for $180K? How about $200K, or $250K...
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P-A-F,
What you are saying is that the (ADF) employer contribution remains in consolidated revinue increasing at what I believe is CPI. Incidentally, I thought we were able to access our super at 60. The employer contributions for a person employed in the civilian sector remains in a super fund and will thus grow at the rate of that fund – currently funds are doing very well.
The difference is that our employer contributes between 17% to 28% of our final 3 years average salary (for the vast majority of us in MSBS). That means for the average FLTLT (or equivalent) who earns (3 year average) $100,000 our employer is contributing between $17,000 and $28,000 per year to our super. I think that is quite competitive from a ’package’ point of view.
Of course, you can only leverage that sort of return by remaining ‘in’.
Incidentally, you say the majority of RAAF (presume ALG, or all FEGs?) tours will be 4 years of flying followed by 2 years later on. 6 years of flying in total! How can guys have the technical expertise to be sound commanders and staff officers with the sum total of 2 flying tours adding up to 6 years flying? Particularly, if you have been out of the game for 8-10 years. How do guys feel about the 3 year sunset clause and loosing Q&S?
What you are saying is that the (ADF) employer contribution remains in consolidated revinue increasing at what I believe is CPI. Incidentally, I thought we were able to access our super at 60. The employer contributions for a person employed in the civilian sector remains in a super fund and will thus grow at the rate of that fund – currently funds are doing very well.
The difference is that our employer contributes between 17% to 28% of our final 3 years average salary (for the vast majority of us in MSBS). That means for the average FLTLT (or equivalent) who earns (3 year average) $100,000 our employer is contributing between $17,000 and $28,000 per year to our super. I think that is quite competitive from a ’package’ point of view.
Of course, you can only leverage that sort of return by remaining ‘in’.
Incidentally, you say the majority of RAAF (presume ALG, or all FEGs?) tours will be 4 years of flying followed by 2 years later on. 6 years of flying in total! How can guys have the technical expertise to be sound commanders and staff officers with the sum total of 2 flying tours adding up to 6 years flying? Particularly, if you have been out of the game for 8-10 years. How do guys feel about the 3 year sunset clause and loosing Q&S?
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Jeese some of you blokes winging have already been in the RAAF too long reading some of the drivel you are coming up with. A few home truths:
1. The RAAF doesn’t give a sh*t if you leave. In fact the whole system is designed for TURNOVER of personnel. The whole posting, promotion system is designed to continually bring new blood that are green, keen and will put up with the crap that comes with being in the military.
2. The RAAF does NOT think that every pilot wants to be CAF. I’m not sure if you noticed but there are fewer SQNLDR positions than FLTLT, few WGCDR than SQNLDR etc and there is only one CAF. So the whole system is designed to actively get people promoted as you get older/more experienced away from flying in order to open the spots to new younger fresher greener spots. The older guys either get promoted if that is what they want or get out, jack of not flying. This is what the system WANTS. To say it is wrong just because you, who feel your experience of stick and rudder skills flying aircraft in the RAAF, counts for something in the RAAF, means you have completely missed the whole way the defence force recruits and retains people. The RAAF wants a rather large percentage of (insert job type – not limited to pilots) to leave so that new blokes can come in and the people who have not yet had enough get promoted to train the new blokes.
3. The only time the system actually cares if more people are leaving than they can recruit is if this condition actually carries on for a good number of years. Whilst with our new 13555 member RAAF doesn’t have anywhere near the fat it once had prior to 1991, the system really doesn’t care. Just have a look at current ops. I met an LACW Box packer the other day who had been in for 3.5 years and had spent more time overseas on ops than she had back in Australia since joining. What this shows is that we WILL continue to screw people for everything they are worth and more in order to meet whatever the govt wants us to do.
It is blatantly obvious even to blind Freddie, that the RAAF either wants you to get promoted or get out. The fact that YOU want to keep flying is irrelevant. The RAAF has no room for 45 year old FLTLT’s A Cats who just want to keep lighting the sky or ground (20,000ft/20ft) on fire, that is the job of the 20 something relatively new bloke.
Seems to me that a lot of the posters here simply haven’t discovered the reality of how the ADF works. Once your ROSO is up, the RAAF no longer wants you flying. Get out or get a desk job.
Me, I’m gone in 3.5 months after 14.5 years to greener (and better paying) pastures. No I’m not bitter and twisted, just understand the reality of the RAAF and also what PAF put down as the financial reality of the military pay and super system. Good luck to those staying in, hope you enjoy your desks and promotion as I am sure that you blokes who are staying and get to the lofty heights, will look back on this archived thread in 10 or 15 years and make all the changes that you wanted as a senior FLTLT/SQNLDR
Cheers
CB
1. The RAAF doesn’t give a sh*t if you leave. In fact the whole system is designed for TURNOVER of personnel. The whole posting, promotion system is designed to continually bring new blood that are green, keen and will put up with the crap that comes with being in the military.
2. The RAAF does NOT think that every pilot wants to be CAF. I’m not sure if you noticed but there are fewer SQNLDR positions than FLTLT, few WGCDR than SQNLDR etc and there is only one CAF. So the whole system is designed to actively get people promoted as you get older/more experienced away from flying in order to open the spots to new younger fresher greener spots. The older guys either get promoted if that is what they want or get out, jack of not flying. This is what the system WANTS. To say it is wrong just because you, who feel your experience of stick and rudder skills flying aircraft in the RAAF, counts for something in the RAAF, means you have completely missed the whole way the defence force recruits and retains people. The RAAF wants a rather large percentage of (insert job type – not limited to pilots) to leave so that new blokes can come in and the people who have not yet had enough get promoted to train the new blokes.
3. The only time the system actually cares if more people are leaving than they can recruit is if this condition actually carries on for a good number of years. Whilst with our new 13555 member RAAF doesn’t have anywhere near the fat it once had prior to 1991, the system really doesn’t care. Just have a look at current ops. I met an LACW Box packer the other day who had been in for 3.5 years and had spent more time overseas on ops than she had back in Australia since joining. What this shows is that we WILL continue to screw people for everything they are worth and more in order to meet whatever the govt wants us to do.
It is blatantly obvious even to blind Freddie, that the RAAF either wants you to get promoted or get out. The fact that YOU want to keep flying is irrelevant. The RAAF has no room for 45 year old FLTLT’s A Cats who just want to keep lighting the sky or ground (20,000ft/20ft) on fire, that is the job of the 20 something relatively new bloke.
Seems to me that a lot of the posters here simply haven’t discovered the reality of how the ADF works. Once your ROSO is up, the RAAF no longer wants you flying. Get out or get a desk job.
Me, I’m gone in 3.5 months after 14.5 years to greener (and better paying) pastures. No I’m not bitter and twisted, just understand the reality of the RAAF and also what PAF put down as the financial reality of the military pay and super system. Good luck to those staying in, hope you enjoy your desks and promotion as I am sure that you blokes who are staying and get to the lofty heights, will look back on this archived thread in 10 or 15 years and make all the changes that you wanted as a senior FLTLT/SQNLDR
Cheers
CB
Griffinblack
I stand to be corrected, but since the officer pay restructure I understood that the Q&S was all rolled into the salary bands and there aint no reduction provision any more. The only extra is the disability component -ie: if posted to flying or not. Can anyone confirm this?
I stand to be corrected, but since the officer pay restructure I understood that the Q&S was all rolled into the salary bands and there aint no reduction provision any more. The only extra is the disability component -ie: if posted to flying or not. Can anyone confirm this?
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R M,
You could be correct. I was under the impression that if you were not in a flying related position for greater than 3 years, you went from pay group 10 (or whatever you were on) back to pay group 2 (?) – that is, you lost the Q&S component. I would be happy to stand corrected.
You could be correct. I was under the impression that if you were not in a flying related position for greater than 3 years, you went from pay group 10 (or whatever you were on) back to pay group 2 (?) – that is, you lost the Q&S component. I would be happy to stand corrected.
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CB,
That's all well and good to say that the RAAF wants 10 years flying out of their pilots and they either step up or step out but who is going to train all these green recruits if there are no QFIs to run the schools and the OPCONs? With all this hardware turning up in a relatively small amount of time ATG are really going to struggle to keep up with demand. Retention might not be such an issue for your average line driver but it is for anyone with a training job to fill.
That's all well and good to say that the RAAF wants 10 years flying out of their pilots and they either step up or step out but who is going to train all these green recruits if there are no QFIs to run the schools and the OPCONs? With all this hardware turning up in a relatively small amount of time ATG are really going to struggle to keep up with demand. Retention might not be such an issue for your average line driver but it is for anyone with a training job to fill.