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Qantas Seniority Joke

Old 11th Jan 2006, 21:55
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Angry Qantas Seniority Joke

After years of sitting on the sidelines watching things on here, it is time to register. About the only place I can have my say without fear of retribution (unlike Qrewroom).

The holy grail of everything when you join Qantas is seniority. Your lifestyle, promotions etc. all revolve around your number. When you start, you are at the bottom, cop all the crap that the roster has to offer, work every Christmas, no weekends or days you want off, are almost always on standby or call etc etc. As people join, you move up and things get better. Whether or not the system is fair is another debate, but at the moment it is the system we live under and by giving some a head start is just not cricket.

Why is it that cadets get to join the company with 2 years plus seniority on everyone else? No crappy trips, no blanklines (which equals higher pay than others who join on the same day) etc, and 2 years less until promotion? In the case of the 330, I believe they are being placed close to the top of the seniority pile on this (they get to enjoy the spoils straight away that others have to wait years for). What is completely wrong is that it pushes people who have done some time further down the pile.

There have been threads on Qrewroom, but the majority of punters (except mainly former cadets who support the whole 'give them seniority' scheme) are reluctant to comment as anyone in Qantas who generally mentions anything about cadets becomes a marked person in the eyes of some. I am like the majority who don't have a problem with cadets, I don't care that the cadet program exists, I just don't believe they should get preferential treatment when it comes to seniority in the company.

All the while, AIPA struggles with internal politics due to the former bitter ex-COM making accusations of the newly elects acting without due authority from the membership, thereby not having time to properly deal with this sort of crap. What I cannot accept is that the former COM actually put this deal through which alters the goal posts and gives people seniority they should not have (without the authority their current argument is based around). You get a number the day you join QF. This has always been the case, and always should under the present system. The former COM cannot also accept that this deal was one which really pissed just about everyone off as all can see how unfair and wrong it is (they wonder why they were given the boot so royally - being so arrogant that they could not actually see what the membership wanted). Not just those directly affected, but those like myself who have nothing to lose as we are further up the pile, but cringe to think about how AIPA has sold out some of its members, thereby making me wonder what they will do to us.

With regard to AIPA, I believe it is about 200 people below those with the seniority. I really believe that AIPA should refund the membership dues all these people have paid in the last 2 years or so. At the end of the day, these people have paid these membership dues to AIPA, while AIPA has advanced the interests of a small group of people who have not been financial members. Shouldn't it be doing the opposite?

Sorry for the long rant, but don't want to get involved in Qrewroom, particularly as I don't want to put a target on my melon commenting on this sensitive topic.

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Old 11th Jan 2006, 21:59
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

Just to make it perfectly clear, I have nothing against those who have gained from this as not one person here would knock the opportunity back had we all been given it. My beef is with the system and the powers that be who are making it happen, not cadets or those just starting who are gaining.
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Old 11th Jan 2006, 23:08
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

If the original LOA was only for about 9 people, why have those further down the list gone down by 25 numbers in the last few days (rumour I have heard).

I fully agree with the above. Why did aipa support this? If the company wanted to do it through other means, let them do it. Aipa is there to represent its members. Those gaining the seniority were not members. By doing so it stuck a knife in the back of some of its fully paid up members.

This is one of the main reasons I voted for the ARG, along with the inaction of the previous group to do anything about loss of flying, and a sell out of junior members again with the Singapore basing.

As new hires, will these new recruits (even with their seniority) be made to sign the contract sending them to Singapore? Or is there further preferential treatment they have been given to make sure they don't have to cop a shafting thanks to our previous Aipa?

Moving down 25 numbers seniority wise can potentially cause a significant financial loss over the course of a career. From someone who is not going to be affected, but who can see the inequity of this deal for newer members, thanks Aipa. If you have to wait another year or more for firstly f/o, then command due to this load of crap deal, what is the financial penalty? What about the lifestyle penalty when it comes to rostering? Where is the fairness in that.

Seniority starts the day you start. Full stop. You can't bend the rules to suit some and not others.
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Old 11th Jan 2006, 23:21
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

Those gaining the seniority were not members
Do you have to be a member to get a seniority number?
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Old 12th Jan 2006, 02:54
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

Originally Posted by High Octane
No crappy trips, no blanklines (which equals higher pay than others who join on the same day) etc
Gosh, I know people who would love to have them 'crappy trips'. And without blanklines the 'lower pay' is bad?! ha...
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Old 12th Jan 2006, 02:55
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

HO perhaps this is just extra incentive to join the company as a cadet! While I agree that this appears quite unfair, I guess if you are employed by the company, you play by their rules...
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Old 12th Jan 2006, 02:58
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Lightbulb Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

Originally Posted by Capt Fathom
Do you have to be a member to get a seniority number?
No.

Originally Posted by High Octane
You get a number the day you join QF. This has always been the case, and always should under the present system.
This has NOT always been the case. I can think of a few examples over the last decade or so where numbers have been put aside for a variety of reasons. Sometimes they involved people being pushed back, other times it involve people leaping forward by a bunch of numbers.

I'll stick my hand up as one of the 'ex cadets' that HO refers to. My point on Qrewroom wasn't about how a deal on numbers was done, it was about whether it 'fits' with the general principles of what I've always understood seniorority to be- and it certainly isn't always based on the day you join otherwise I'd be about a half dozen numbers senior to what I am now!

I don't know why QF wanted this LOA the way it was or why AIPA agreed to it in the manner that they did. I do know that if QF wanted the cadets to have number a number and then send them elsewhere then they can do that without too many dramas- I know they can because there was no LOA covering the six or so that started up to three years behind me but who are now senior. (I should also note that I agree entirely with the methodology utilised that involves those six now being senior to me....they should be!).

I can however sympathise with the way that information has been disseminated about the issue. Seeing your seniority number increase (in a bad way) by 20 or so numbers without knowing why is never pleasant and it'd be nice if 'someone' could have explained why.

As for the issue of being able to coment on Qrewroom, well there are things that you can say on Qrewroom that will get you tea, biccies and a target on your back and then there are threads like this one! If you reckon opinions such as you've expressed here would make you a target then I'm not sure how I've managed to survive the last six years of being registered on Qrewroom. This is tame compared to some opinions expressed over time. I think you're taking that part of it all a bit too seriously!
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Old 12th Jan 2006, 03:10
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

Just another joke for the ever growing QF jokebook.

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzoinkzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Old 12th Jan 2006, 20:57
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

Is it true that they started some cadets on a particular day - say a Tuesday, (which was after another group who started the day before - say Monday) and then manipulated the system to give the cadet group starting after the others an effective seniority date of before them (the seniority list was changed a few months later without those who were being shafted being told)? This was the experience of a person I flew with several months back.

Keg, there was different situations in the past you talk about (periods of no recruitment) and slightly different circumstances to what is happening now from what I have been told. Personally, I don't care what anyone says, I firmly believe this is totally wrong.

For those of you not in Qantas, seniority is everything once you are employed. Being very lowly in rank means life can be tough, especially if you are lower than what you really should be.
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Old 13th Jan 2006, 00:52
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

Originally Posted by Bazzamundi
Being very lowly in rank means life can be tough, especially if you are lower than what you really should be.
Oh yeah life is sooooooo tough getting paid 90K+ to basically sit on your fat arse most of the month. Then when you do fly you just sit in the back and do nothing..... tough ....booo hooo
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Old 13th Jan 2006, 01:12
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

Good one Ballteara. 20 numbers seniority would have given me a promotion nearly 2 years earlier than it took. Factor that into f/o promotion, followed by command, and then it becomes a real issue moneywise.
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Old 13th Jan 2006, 20:38
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

Originally Posted by Crusty Demon
and then it becomes a real issue moneywise.
A real issue? you truly have no idea, how can 100K plus be a real issue? Your command being delayed by to years (for around 200K) a real issue?
Try paying off a big-ass mortgage whilst on 40K flying stupid hours in dangerously old planes.
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Old 13th Jan 2006, 22:08
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

hey podbreak

boohoo idiot. you choose your own destiny mate, i chose mine. You go get yourself a big-ass mortgage on 40k then you are the dumb one my friend.

ballteara,

pretty sure its about 120k on their fat arse, so boohoo to you too sook
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Old 13th Jan 2006, 23:00
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

Perhaps more relevant- your seniority (or juniority in this case) determines the order of redundancy or transfer to a low cost subsidiary.
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Old 13th Jan 2006, 23:33
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

brisbane,

neither of us did mate, QF have the final say. my point is simply that if this small seniority is your biggest issue, then you've truly lost sight of the bigger picture. I may not have landed the best jet job, but i've still got perspective.
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Old 14th Jan 2006, 02:33
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

Look on the bright side, you still get paid doing what you love. And no matter what number on the ladder. Just think yourself lucky you have what you have.
Look at those guys in the U.S in the airlines there, with so many on the brink of chapter 11. Now how shaky would you be, going to work knowing today or next week it could be all over red rover.

So be greatful for what we have, that for GD to keep the airline expanding and to keep us all in employment. If you dont change with the times we could have all ended up like AN. Now thats a tough act to swallow.
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Old 14th Jan 2006, 02:41
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

Podbreak, I have been in the position of flying crappy dangerous aircraft around, and have seen the same sort of thing where the bloke who has a couple of years on the single gets leapfrogged by some bloke with no experience who turns up wanting to fly the twin (and also get paid more). So I assume if this happens to you, it gives the others the right to say boo-hoo because you are getting 40 grand a year? I got a lot less than 40 grand in GA for starters, and so are a lot of people at present. You can actually earn less than that in some of the regionals.

I suppose then that when you end up in QF or some other airline, you will want to let others start on a lot better terms and conditions than yourself because it is so much better than the 40 grand you get now? If you look closely, the majority expressing concern at this deal are ones who are not directly affected by it. However, they are wanting to look after those who are yet to join so they are not subjected to the same discrimination. It is unfair, just as it is to the bloke in GA who has spent time with one operator to have the newby inexperienced get the better flying above him. It has nothing to do with pay.

Or will you be happier with your extensive GA experience to start and have cadets who start on the same day get 2 years less time for promotion, and a major head start when it comes to rostering all because they are better qualified than yourself. In effect, they will be paid a lot more over the course of their career. Does this sound fair to you?
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Old 14th Jan 2006, 02:50
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

In effect, they will be paid a lot more over the course of their career. Does this sound fair to you?

Yes.

Next !
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Old 14th Jan 2006, 09:37
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

SkyJetJockey: if you were to be retrenched where would the first to go come from? That's right, the bottom of the seniority pile. But hey, in Qantas, lets then kick a bloke out who has up to 2 years experience in the company while the Johny Come Lately who has not even finished his endorsement but has 2 years false seniority stays. From what I gather most retrenchments happen on a last on first off base.

As for changing with the times, I suppose we would all end up like AN with the company going bankrupt if we don't fudge with peoples seniority numbers. Sounds like a deal critical to the survival and expansion of QF. Perhaps that view was what forced the former aipa into accepting this deal behind everyones back. That sort of logic makes me wonder. The company could have presented anything to the previous group, told them it was critical or the company would not survive, and hey presto, a pen came out and said where do we sign.
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Old 14th Jan 2006, 16:42
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Re: Qantas Seniority Joke

This thread has more than a couple of comments by young, ignorant GA watanabes. No problem with who they are, I was a young, ignorant GA watanabe once BUT I kept my mouth shut when older guys talked about how things were in their particular sphere of the aviation world.

For example, I had an opinion on the Pilots’ Strike or Dispute or whatever but thank God I kept my mouth shut because years later I realised how freakin daft and ignorant I was about it.

Posts introducing the notion of how badly off those in GA are on $40K a year are utter garbage and should be erased from this worthwhile thread.

Podbreak, you might realise one day what your perspective truly is from your perch in GA. You obviously do not yet, though, because you have only seen one side of the coin. Come back when you have seen both sides and cringe at your own infantile comments.

Podbreak, once upon a time, if you kept at it in GA and weren’t a complete cripple, you’d do your time and finish up in your “best job” eventually. Now, thanks to greed and clever management by CEOs, we have an utter shambles of a process but that’s another topic. Wait your turn and you will get there eventually – that is, of course, unless some other enterprising young pilots do some sort of newer, cheaper deal to circumvent the system and cut you out.

Podbreak, don’t mention your crappy aircraft and measely $40K. MOST of us here have done the same for years but without anywhere near $40K, without GPS, without VB and J* offering a way to jump the queue (for a lot less cash) after only a couple of years in a PA-31 and definitely without pprune to whinge about it all on.

Seniority IS everything in an airline like The Rat. This is no great revelation, Ernie Gann pointed it out quite clearly many years ago. If and when Podbreak makes it to an airline, he can enjoy the novelty of the “crappy” trips others don’t like…. for a while. Then he might find himself irritated when he is assigned them again and again while junior pilots get around them.
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