The real dangers of Black Night VFR.
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...safe as?
A branch of aviation that does a fair bit of NVFR in this country is AG. There is an odd accident (1 this year?) but for hours flown (very demanding work) I would think the accident rate is a lot lower than normal NVFR? All this with very basic instrumentation, up until a few years ago an AH was unusual and the only instruments were a T+B or turn coodinator, Airspeed and Altimeter. Thankfully now most have an AH even if it is ventui driven.
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Duxnutz
"Well in the States you don't even have to do a NVFR rating! Hows that for safe?"
I do not know if your question was meant to be rhetorical or not?
Presuming that it was not, the answer is "extremely safe"
If you do not have a NVFR Rating, then I guess you do not consider yourself qualified to fly at night.
If you do have a NVFR Rating then the "Authorities" are saying to you, by default, "Go for it".
I spent many a year , with an instrument rating, flying Nomads around the NT, in all sorts of weather, to any port I was required to go into, aeromedical.
The scariest nights were those with no moon at all!!
It is extremely easy to get "the leans". For a novice it would without doubt lead to a bingle.
My vote is to get rid of NVFR and singles at night
IMHO
"Well in the States you don't even have to do a NVFR rating! Hows that for safe?"
I do not know if your question was meant to be rhetorical or not?
Presuming that it was not, the answer is "extremely safe"
If you do not have a NVFR Rating, then I guess you do not consider yourself qualified to fly at night.
If you do have a NVFR Rating then the "Authorities" are saying to you, by default, "Go for it".
I spent many a year , with an instrument rating, flying Nomads around the NT, in all sorts of weather, to any port I was required to go into, aeromedical.
The scariest nights were those with no moon at all!!
It is extremely easy to get "the leans". For a novice it would without doubt lead to a bingle.
My vote is to get rid of NVFR and singles at night
IMHO
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I have to agree with McGowan on this one! I teach NVFR Ratings in Helos and have considerable experience doing so BUT I will not venture out if the weather is in anyway questionable (including moon phase). Working over water at night (and in some of the remoter areas of Australia) is not an easy job for anybody and I personally feel overwater work at night should be reclassified as requiring an IFR rating and IFR aircraft.
On the other side of the coin, in helicopters in particular because they are so hands-on machines, the NVFR rating is an exceptional confidence/skill builder with most pilots displaying considerably improved pilotting skills after having completed a NVFR rating.
For the unitiated; the NIGHT AUTOROTATIONS can be a very interesting serial!!!
On the other side of the coin, in helicopters in particular because they are so hands-on machines, the NVFR rating is an exceptional confidence/skill builder with most pilots displaying considerably improved pilotting skills after having completed a NVFR rating.
For the unitiated; the NIGHT AUTOROTATIONS can be a very interesting serial!!!
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. My Night VFR training was mostly been focused on IFR type flying but introducing a look outside as part of the scan. My Instructors have always taken me off to dark areas away from city lights and on dark nights so I could gain the experience and skills to fly safely even with no moon. My unusual attitude practice has always been off the coast over water recovery on instruments turns on instruments. Is that not how others are taught night VFR. My next step is PIFR and it seems sensible that night VFR is a logical step. The introduction of Flight following should give us more time to spend eyes inside I would think. I do have the luxury of a twin with a full modern IFR package including dual HIS. I certainly feel safer then the night VFR work I have done in singles. However if singles should be band for night VFR should they also not be banned in all types of Instrument Operations I don’t think this would go down well. All types of flying has risk so does crossing the street.
Like all aviation, Is not recently and good training and a sensible airspace system the key.
Like all aviation, Is not recently and good training and a sensible airspace system the key.
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dirtylittlefokker
Re the US requirements for night flying, I think you may be surprised at how "basic" they are in comparison to the NVFR in OZ...I know I was. Having said that, you just hope that a degree of common sense is used by someone with minimal night flying experience...
The following is an excerpt on the syllabus for the US PPL which can include night training.
Sec. 61.109 Airplane Rating: Aeronautical Experience
An applicant for a private pilot certificate with an airplane rating must have had at least a total of 40 hours of flight instruction and solo time which must include the following:
(a) Twenty hours of flight instruction from an authorized flight instructor, including at least--
- Three hours of cross country;
- Three hours of instrument flight training;
- Three hours at night, including 10 takeoffs and landings for applicants seeking night flying privileges; and
- Three hours in airplanes in preparation for the private pilot flight test within 60 days prior to that test.
An applicant who does not meet the night flying requirement in paragraph (a)(2) of this section is issued a private pilot certificate bearing the limitation "Night flying prohibited." This limitation may be removed if the holder of the certificate shows that he has met the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section.
Re the US requirements for night flying, I think you may be surprised at how "basic" they are in comparison to the NVFR in OZ...I know I was. Having said that, you just hope that a degree of common sense is used by someone with minimal night flying experience...
The following is an excerpt on the syllabus for the US PPL which can include night training.
Sec. 61.109 Airplane Rating: Aeronautical Experience
An applicant for a private pilot certificate with an airplane rating must have had at least a total of 40 hours of flight instruction and solo time which must include the following:
(a) Twenty hours of flight instruction from an authorized flight instructor, including at least--
- Three hours of cross country;
- Three hours of instrument flight training;
- Three hours at night, including 10 takeoffs and landings for applicants seeking night flying privileges; and
- Three hours in airplanes in preparation for the private pilot flight test within 60 days prior to that test.
An applicant who does not meet the night flying requirement in paragraph (a)(2) of this section is issued a private pilot certificate bearing the limitation "Night flying prohibited." This limitation may be removed if the holder of the certificate shows that he has met the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section.
Thread Starter
Messiah. How do you define "thorough training?" Can you quantify the hours required to meet the standard of "thorough training". if a student has been trained to a competent standard then there is little more an instructor can do unless he is the type who is happy to keep on bashing up flying hours at extra cost to the hapless student.
Matt YSBK: You wrote: "My unusual attitude practice has always been off the coast over water recovery on instrument turns on instruments"
CASA would be interested why your instructor sees fit to teach unusual attitude recoveries at night, particularly with lack of a horizon over water. I suggest that unusual attitude recovery training is best done in daylight VMC because your instructor is sure sticking your neck out doing it at night on instruments. Better still, do it on instruments in a synthetic trainer where extreme attitudes can be attained at no risk. It's cheaper, too!
Matt YSBK: You wrote: "My unusual attitude practice has always been off the coast over water recovery on instrument turns on instruments"
CASA would be interested why your instructor sees fit to teach unusual attitude recoveries at night, particularly with lack of a horizon over water. I suggest that unusual attitude recovery training is best done in daylight VMC because your instructor is sure sticking your neck out doing it at night on instruments. Better still, do it on instruments in a synthetic trainer where extreme attitudes can be attained at no risk. It's cheaper, too!
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MATT YSBK,
Have to agree with Centaurus entirely concerning UA's overwater with no horizon at night! I think the risks far outweight the advantages in this case; especially in a helicopter which is inherently unstable and incredibly unforgiving in certain flight regimes - mast bumping is one phenonema I would not even like to consider in such an exercise! Some people appear to forget that it is a NVFR rating and to convince people that they can do more than that through minimal exposure to those conditions could be quite dangerous!
It is generally when pilots take their aircraft outside the scope and strict limits of the rating that they find themselves in trouble and for the most part, this falls back squarely to sensible, realistic training with clear advice to pilots about the limits of the rating.
I stress those limits to my trainees and advise them in the first briefing that the rating is really designed to finish a flight after dark when the weather permits or conversely, to commence a flight before first light in good conditions. For that reason, their first navex is commenced before last light so the candidate can experience the transition into darkness.
Capn Bloggs, Feel free to pop down anytime for a night auto's serial - it's no more dangerous than driving through Redfern at 2am with the windows down!
Have to agree with Centaurus entirely concerning UA's overwater with no horizon at night! I think the risks far outweight the advantages in this case; especially in a helicopter which is inherently unstable and incredibly unforgiving in certain flight regimes - mast bumping is one phenonema I would not even like to consider in such an exercise! Some people appear to forget that it is a NVFR rating and to convince people that they can do more than that through minimal exposure to those conditions could be quite dangerous!
It is generally when pilots take their aircraft outside the scope and strict limits of the rating that they find themselves in trouble and for the most part, this falls back squarely to sensible, realistic training with clear advice to pilots about the limits of the rating.
I stress those limits to my trainees and advise them in the first briefing that the rating is really designed to finish a flight after dark when the weather permits or conversely, to commence a flight before first light in good conditions. For that reason, their first navex is commenced before last light so the candidate can experience the transition into darkness.
Capn Bloggs, Feel free to pop down anytime for a night auto's serial - it's no more dangerous than driving through Redfern at 2am with the windows down!
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Centaurus
Thanks for your question.
Thorough training is something different to box ticking training and there is not an hours figure that goes with it. Quality rather than quantity basically.
Hope you get my drift.
Thanks for your question.
Thorough training is something different to box ticking training and there is not an hours figure that goes with it. Quality rather than quantity basically.
Hope you get my drift.
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Training is very important I agree, but with that flying you must also add the "mental training" or "mental ability"(not sure these are the right terms so hope you get my meaning).
I've done a little bit of NVFR training for pilots in the past and some can do the physical bit but the mental stuff is beyond them.
No matter how much you explain the fact that NVFR is "visual", not "instrument" flying, that the use of instruments is really for an emergency, such as inadvertant flight into IMC which should be pretty rare if you check the weather before heading off into the dark or loss of the natural horizon for some reason, and that these types of flights require far more pre flight planning than a lap around the block after lunch, some people still look at it as just another flight.
The biggest problem I had when conducting tests for the issue of a NVFR rating was the simple fact that you can't fail a candidate because you know he is a ********.
If he comes up with the required skills, flys to the required standards and answers the questions correctly on the night of the test, then he is a pass......
Glad I am out of the area now.
I've done a little bit of NVFR training for pilots in the past and some can do the physical bit but the mental stuff is beyond them.
No matter how much you explain the fact that NVFR is "visual", not "instrument" flying, that the use of instruments is really for an emergency, such as inadvertant flight into IMC which should be pretty rare if you check the weather before heading off into the dark or loss of the natural horizon for some reason, and that these types of flights require far more pre flight planning than a lap around the block after lunch, some people still look at it as just another flight.
The biggest problem I had when conducting tests for the issue of a NVFR rating was the simple fact that you can't fail a candidate because you know he is a ********.
If he comes up with the required skills, flys to the required standards and answers the questions correctly on the night of the test, then he is a pass......
Glad I am out of the area now.
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Before the RAAF sent me night solo 20 years ago, I had done 8 IF rides.
Much the same requirement still exists today in the ADF's basic syllabus - for a damn good reason I believe.
Much the same requirement still exists today in the ADF's basic syllabus - for a damn good reason I believe.
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The cost, the syllabus and the term "night rating" implies a whole new set of priviledges, and that is the problem with it. The US system of making it a small part of the PPL is more sensible, rightly implying it is a small part of the day VFR syllabus designed for leaving a little early, or getting back a little late. The fact more night VFR only pilots don't end up in a hole 2km upwind is because most people are sensible enough during the training to realise it's a poor man's instrument rating and either are good IF pilots anyway, or don't use the rating for entirely-at-night flights.
Mcgowan -- what do you mean "the use of instruments is really for an emergency"? Where are you looking after rotation?
Mcgowan -- what do you mean "the use of instruments is really for an emergency"? Where are you looking after rotation?
Quick question
I realise this is a liitle off the current discussion in this thread, but there seems to be some here who will have the answer...
I am wondering about the logging of I.F. time, while operating N.V.F.R.
For example:
you depart in VMC, before first light;
there's no horizon to speak of, ie you are handling the aircraft with reference to the instruments (the definition of instrument flight);
the weather is VMC (wrt vis and cloud);
the a/c has a VFR Maint. Release, or you're IFR but not current...
Can you log instrument time?
CR
P.S. Someone stated earlier, that in the definition of VMC there is no mention of an "external horizon" being available for orientation - and I reckon that is the key to this. Problem is, how do you "measure" it?
I am wondering about the logging of I.F. time, while operating N.V.F.R.
For example:
you depart in VMC, before first light;
there's no horizon to speak of, ie you are handling the aircraft with reference to the instruments (the definition of instrument flight);
the weather is VMC (wrt vis and cloud);
the a/c has a VFR Maint. Release, or you're IFR but not current...
Can you log instrument time?
CR
P.S. Someone stated earlier, that in the definition of VMC there is no mention of an "external horizon" being available for orientation - and I reckon that is the key to this. Problem is, how do you "measure" it?
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Having flown Marine Pilot Transfers in North Aust. in underpowered (single engined) helicopters. I can assure you, nothing raises the heart rate more than lifting from a well lit moving ship into the BLACK.
With no visible horizon and no external lights (towns etc.) they call it night VFR......................
CASA was looking at changing the Regs. sometime ago to outlaw this sort of activity......pity they were just looking.
With no visible horizon and no external lights (towns etc.) they call it night VFR......................
CASA was looking at changing the Regs. sometime ago to outlaw this sort of activity......pity they were just looking.
How can you seriously say that you're flying VFR if there's no discernible horizon? The whole concept of letting non-instrument trained pilots launch off into the darkness with no reference to how much ambient light there is (ie moon phase, cloud cover, time of night) is an absolute joke, as Roy and HG would say.
Night flying in most conditions, if you have good instrument skills and a good understanding of how you're going to get down again once you get up there, is fine, but the whole concept is badly flawed when you consider the minimal training that is required to give someone a night VFR rating.
Night flying in most conditions, if you have good instrument skills and a good understanding of how you're going to get down again once you get up there, is fine, but the whole concept is badly flawed when you consider the minimal training that is required to give someone a night VFR rating.
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Arm out the window - I agree, letting untrained pilots loose by night is not appropriate. That doesn't change the rules though, and the rules do not require you to be able to discern a horizon to be VFR (by night or day).
NZ CAA Rules Part 91 Subpart D — Visual Flight Rules,
91.301 "VFR meteorological minima" refers. Unsure of the Oz equivalent.
(edited sp)
NZ CAA Rules Part 91 Subpart D — Visual Flight Rules,
91.301 "VFR meteorological minima" refers. Unsure of the Oz equivalent.
(edited sp)
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Many years ago when I was in England, there was so much smog that you had to use instruments to fly a circuit, and one day the parachuting was discontinued as visibility was not good enough. Nil cloud, poor vis. The local flying instructor told us that "if you can see the ground you know which way is down, so you should be able to fly." The tower had a VHF direction finder, and could help aircraft get home. (Strange that Australian towers do not have it)
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Point Cook tower used to (used to = > 25 years ago) have a CADF (commutated antenna direction finder, I think it stood for). Don't know if any other military ATC centres had them though.
