How many Cadets could they absorb? Surely not all of them.
I agree, its a bit of a kick in backside for the GA Bush drivers accumulating those hours to get to those positions. But somehow I dont think Air North will confine all it recruiting to Cadets only. No amount of Training can replace experience and Local Knowlegde. Theyve allready been using Cadets before I believe. I think theyve had sucess with this in the past. Only an external viewers opinion though.
Are you guys/gals sure Air North are going to gamble their reputation on low time pilots such as the cadets?? Do they need an interview or flight test, or are they considered up to standard simply because of their status? Makes you wonder how the HARD WORKING GA pilots get anywhere when possible jobs are handed on a plate to inexperienced pilots...
What's mildly amusing is that in the UK the low houred pilots think they are hard done by if they have to do turboprop time. After 500 hours FO (oh sorry, P1-US) on them, they are more than ready for command or jets. Just ask them....
Are you guys/gals sure Air North are going to gamble their reputation on low time pilots such as the cadets??
HOO hoo haw haw har har, aah, chortle chortle chortle, ha ha ha hoo hoo hoo....
Gamble their REPUTATION! When I was working there they were trying to LOSE their reputation!!
And that wasn't THAT long ago!
Question: Why did ANR management decide in 1996 to promote C210 pilots first to the rhs of the metro, then to the C402, rather than the other way around?
Answer: Because anybody that had 500 multi command before starting on the metro ******ed off within 200-400 hrs metro to kendell or hazo's. Nil-twin-command pilots stayed in the rhs for at least 1000hrs.
So training and retention triumphed over experience, then as now.
------ Yes, QF cadets. Good luck to them. Probably a MUCH better first job than working it out by yourself while trusting pax are in the back.
Bush guys and girls, don't fret. Cadets might take the rhs, but they cannot move to the left. There are two or three ex-Ansett cadets that are stuck in rhs Bras for over two years now. No 500 multi command. Sitting there watching less senior lads/lasses moving to command. Cuts both ways
Only two years ago, the ex-airnorth on the resume was interpreted as -- probably practical, probably knows how to hustle the day along, probably cuts more than a few corners, and not too much expected of technical and professional knowledge, a slightly glorified bush pilot!
It was actually quite a well run outfit under D.R., metros in better shape and better equipped than the kendell buckets that we cross-hired, worked bloody hard day after day, and some pretty sharp operators there...
But that wasn't what the rest of the industry thought....
Hoo-er, think I'll ring the boys, they will love that quote above...
ICTV,we probaly know each other as i too worked for ANR untill the split from ANR Central.I reckon you are talking about kendal metro,VH-!@#KED.Yes it spent alot of time in the hagar in Darwin.Kendals did OK as they got a pretty good a/c back.DR was alot beter than KP, Cheers. Bush
I empathise with you.It must frustrating working with guys like that wet behind the ears but veterans in their own Lunch Box.
Here in the Carib the same thing was happening for awhile with a Certain Carribean Flag Carrier until a few incidents and accidents occurred, causing the Local CAA to focus on their recruiting. There was alot of Sons and Daughters getting in with under 200 tt all C172, into RHS of A320. Now they have raised their entry requirements to 750 hrs TT . Which has helped the situation.
Regarding what happening at ANR I think they have enough expereince to make an educated decision. Interesting to know how the Current Ansett Cadets are gowing and has it been a success?
This is all fantastic...just what I needed to hear. I've spent the past however many years a trillion Km's from home building up hours to try and climb the lader of aviation and now I find out I could of stayed at home with my 200hours playing PS2 all day and wait for this to come up. Nah, I don't really think that (well not quite), but it is dissapointing to think no matter how many hours you have it's never the right amount.
Mind you on the other hand, these disc jockys aren't going to get a command any time soon so they'll probably be spewing in a few years time.
Speaking to some guys who have just done interviews for 2004 Qantas Cadet course, and they were told that, quote "once they have finished the course they will be expected to work in GA for 1-2 years" unquote.
one can say that your average GA pilot with say 2000 hrs, might have really bad habbits to iron out in a multi crew airline enviroment, but I have meet some really excellent operators in GA who would fly rings around the QF cadet's (so it can go both ways, it really depends on ones personal ability when it comes to mastering a/c above 5700kgs with complicated systems).
If the cadets are well trained it is possible for a 190-200 hr'ish guy to hop into the RHS and do a reasonable job, but what happens when a real emergency occurs, we really don't know how cadets or a high time pilot will react with real life emergencys, it is a different panic to the simulators, or EFATO drills!
How are the QF cadets going to be trained at the flying schools in Oz with a B200 training a/c or actually doing a braz flightsafety course in the USA??? to see if they can really fly the a/c???
Remeber thought that KD and flightwest, skywest used to puts ANSETT cadets from Tamworth into the RHS of turboprop with 200 hrs, but most of these people are still F/O's no command m/e time.
One thing Downwind. HignTime Pilots would have had allready had to react to some sort of incident , accident, or situation ( experience), compared to the Abinitio 200 Hr Person. So there lies in the essential difference, nough said really.
But then again once hes been checked to line, hes ahead of the poor Bush pilot. Cadet Schemes have generaly been the Mastermind of Captains who want to get there Sons and Daughters Jobs over the years, without their poor kids getting their hand dirty. Boys Club stuff really!
This is why these Schemes run Hot and Cold and are the first Programmes to get canned when the Bean Counters come running.
What about all the airline bad habits that have to ironed out of the cadets when they return to GA. In my experience 80% of the cadets that come out of these programs into GA are quite frankly useless. They can't calculate a LSA, can't do an approach to save themselves, don't know the first thing about fuel management, and havn't the faintest idea what the definition of an INTER is.
This would be expected of a low time pilot in GA and you expect to have to teach them. The cadet graduates however, because they have been immersed in airline cotton wool and have 1000+hrs, think they already know it all and it therefore takes 3 times as long to sort them out.
Now on the other side of the equation, I have always found aircraft with cadets on board difficult to deal with (I figure they are cadets because they talk like they should be in the circuit at a GAAP somewhere). I don't know why as there should be someone on board that knows what they are doing, maybe they are too busy pulling their hair out whilst trying to teach the cadet how to fly!
Multicrew aircraft should have two heads up front that know what they are doing, not a babysitter and their child.
Last time I checked, knowing all those definitions were part of the IR test and renewal. I've not come across a cadet in QF who didn't know those types of things. Besides that, I think you'd find a lot of people who have been in an airline for a bunch of years have forgotten how to work out LSALTs etc so that isn't a 'cadet' specific issue! (12 degrees from a hard fix isn't it? )
As for your next statement, what the? I've found some aircraft with former military pilots as captains hard to deal with. I've found some aircraft with former GA drivers as Captains hard to deal with. I've found some aircraft with former cadets as captains hard to deal with. Big deal. There are idiots and morons all over the place.
Oh my gosh. I only had 1500 hours when I was first left alone at the controls of a 767 with a second officer. The sky is falling, the sky is falling. Get real. I jumped through the same fiery hoops as every other pilot in Qantas. Some of the posts on this thread certainly fit the mould as 'childish' so it's probably just as well that you view the 'other' pilot as the baby sitter.
Interestingly, the pass/fail rate on F/O training for former cadets is EXACTLY the same as those from GA and the military.
Spinnerhead - do you expect your post to be taken seriously? You can identify pilots as cadets because they aren't good on the radio?
There may be many valid arguments against cadet programs in regional airlines but I havenít seen any here. Surely we are beyond infantile postings about safety. Cadets have been employed and have operated successfully, safely and professionally in many regional airlines in Oz (and surrounds) for many years.
To see how irrelevant the safety argument is just flick through your volume of "RPT accidents in Australia caused by Cadets". It's a short book. Fair enough, just turn to "RPT Accidents in the USA/Europe caused by Cadets". That's a short book too. Just to round off try Macarthur Job's books and read through some accidents where the crews had a combined 25,000+ hours between them. That can't be right though could it? Isn't it all about the size of your log book?
Last edited by bitter balance; 24th Oct 2003 at 09:02.
"One thing Downwind. HignTime Pilots would have had allready had to react to some sort of incident , accident, or situation ( experience), compared to the Abinitio 200 Hr Person. So there lies in the essential difference, nough said really".
I agree about about expirience, but I don't agree with with an accident or close shave scenario, only for a few pilots from time to time over a established flying career.
BTW are the goldenboys going to Easterns/sunstate? (might need some comments from Hugharse)
It is possible for a cadet to go into the RHS of a turboprop, but why do QF persist to do the cadetship with the way the industry is in at the moment at this time, Oz has plently of excellent pilots with hours, so why do they do this???? BTW what is the history of the goldenboy cadetship.. serious answers only!!!!!