Air Force tracking unresponsive flight over the Atlantic
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My real concern is the number two step on the checklist.
2 - OXYGEN USE, ............................................................ if necessary
2 - OXYGEN USE, ............................................................ if necessary
2 - OXYGEN USE, ..............................if necessary FLY THE AIRPLANE
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You're missing the line-feed that was presumably inserted during the formatting thats occurred to get this copied onto an internet forum. It reads:
2 - OXYGEN USE, ..............................if necessary FLY THE AIRPLANE
2 - OXYGEN USE, ..............................if necessary FLY THE AIRPLANE
No, it does not say that. Look it up yourself; 3.2.22 ("CABIN ALTITUDE" red CAS message)
It reads;
2 - OXYGEN USE, ..............................if necessary
FLY THE AIRPLANE
Etc.
Sorry, link didn't take, I'll try it a different way.
http://www.tbm850.com/2014/images/tb...PIM_900R01.pdf
Try that, hope it works.
But, either way, it should not be so ambiguous and clearly state;
2. OXYGEN USE..............................................DON MASK.
Thread Starter
If they were serious about the whole thing the checklist would read:
1...Oxygen..................Mask On 100%
All the rest of them goodies like bleed air, dump valve and ram air are worth absolutely zero if you can't breathe.
1...Oxygen..................Mask On 100%
All the rest of them goodies like bleed air, dump valve and ram air are worth absolutely zero if you can't breathe.
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If they were serious about the whole thing the checklist would read:
1...Oxygen..................Mask On 100%
All the rest of them goodies like bleed air, dump valve and ram air are worth absolutely zero if you can't breathe.
1...Oxygen..................Mask On 100%
All the rest of them goodies like bleed air, dump valve and ram air are worth absolutely zero if you can't breathe.
Right you are.
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The fine hand of Marketing!
When you are up there at FL280, that demands consideration, when the first order of business should be putting the oxygen mask on any time you even think you have a problem. BUT ....
You are trying to sell a multi-million dollar product to a non-professional pilot, a product that might just try to kill him?! "What is this nonsense? You mean I have to put that stupid-looking thing on, or else I might die? How can this be allowed?"
I bet that while depressurization, TUC, etc., are all covered in the training course for the aircraft, training that is not necessarily a legal requirement, it is not given a great deal of emphasis.
This unfortunate was probably sat there feeling perfectly fine, just trying to figure out why that red light came on, not understanding that was his cue to grab that mask and fit it to his face, that he had three minutes, tops, to do that or else die, because his training had not really made a big thing of telling him that. That's just my guess, of course.
That said, that warning light might come on at a pressure altitude of 13 thousand feet, say, when you could stay there for 30 minutes before descending to 10 thousand or below. Best practice might be to make the use of the mask at 100% the first order of business any time you get that light, but it might not always be absolutely necessary.
I couldn't find a checklist item that reads that the pilot should check the masks for flow and check the oxygen quantity on the first flight of the day. There's just "Front oxygen masks ... Checked," (Page 4.3.11, Item 43) which must be taken as just checking that they are present and properly stowed. I couldn't find a "First flight of the day checks" checklist.
You are trying to sell a multi-million dollar product to a non-professional pilot, a product that might just try to kill him?! "What is this nonsense? You mean I have to put that stupid-looking thing on, or else I might die? How can this be allowed?"
I bet that while depressurization, TUC, etc., are all covered in the training course for the aircraft, training that is not necessarily a legal requirement, it is not given a great deal of emphasis.
This unfortunate was probably sat there feeling perfectly fine, just trying to figure out why that red light came on, not understanding that was his cue to grab that mask and fit it to his face, that he had three minutes, tops, to do that or else die, because his training had not really made a big thing of telling him that. That's just my guess, of course.
That said, that warning light might come on at a pressure altitude of 13 thousand feet, say, when you could stay there for 30 minutes before descending to 10 thousand or below. Best practice might be to make the use of the mask at 100% the first order of business any time you get that light, but it might not always be absolutely necessary.
I couldn't find a checklist item that reads that the pilot should check the masks for flow and check the oxygen quantity on the first flight of the day. There's just "Front oxygen masks ... Checked," (Page 4.3.11, Item 43) which must be taken as just checking that they are present and properly stowed. I couldn't find a "First flight of the day checks" checklist.
Last edited by chuks; 9th Sep 2014 at 05:36.
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You are trying to sell a multi-million dollar product to a non-professional pilot, a product that might just try to kill him?! "What is this nonsense? You mean I have to put that stupid-looking thing on, or else I might die? How can this be allowed?"
A very valid point.
Thread Starter
You make some very valid points chuks. I see those single engine/single pilot t-props like the Malibou, the Pilatus and the TBM as today's version of the Beech Bonanza. The Bonanza wasn't called the doctor/lawyer killer for nothing. It was for it's time an expensive high performance single, usually owned by a professional alpha male type, not prone to taking advice from many. Checklist? We doan need no steenkin' checklist.
By some reports the current victim had 5000 hours on the TBM. If this was indeed so, and not a typo, then he should have been more aware than most of the inherent danger of loss of pressurization and the use of supplemental oxygen.
By some reports the current victim had 5000 hours on the TBM. If this was indeed so, and not a typo, then he should have been more aware than most of the inherent danger of loss of pressurization and the use of supplemental oxygen.
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Narobs, aircraft do not "Ascend" they "climb, "now can you think of another word which sounds just like "Ascend" but in fact means just the opposite? This is why grumpy old farts like me are radio examiners, maybe we can get the likes of you to use standard RT and not go bumping into other aircraft or solid objects!
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Great minds think alike!
I had been thinking of exactly that, pigboat! When I got going in civil aviation about 40 years ago, it was the Bonanza that used to wipe out those guys with enough money to buy one but not enough patience, or respect for the Laws of Gravity, to learn to fly one properly. It must have been the exact equivalent of these modern turbo-props.
I will never forget looking at the wreckage of a Bonanza that some, yes, doctor had been flying when he lost it on instruments, spiralling in and then pulling its wings off. Aside from the engine and prop, and the wheels, the largest piece of that airplane that you could recognize as such was the baggage compartment door, still nice and shiny. The rest was just mangled junk
I remember, too, one fellow who told me in all seriousness that he depended on his autopilot for flight in IMC in his new Cessna 182, that, yes, he knew his basic instrument flying skills were not very good, but he knew how to input commands to the autopilot that should keep his airplane under control for him.
Man, that's like dangling from one silken thread over an abyss, isn't it? But that guy had a lot more money than I did (some guy working at Burger King had a little more money than I did), so that he wasn't very interested in whatever some scrawny CFII had to tell him. In fact, I think he thought I only wanted to sell him some flight instruction, to teach him some skills he probably would never need.
I was looking again at the operating manual PDF that Con-pilot linked to. There's a check of oxygen quantity and shut-off valve position on the pre-flight walk-around, and there's a check that the mask flows in the pre-start checks.
A friend told me about a King Air that turned itself into a burned-out wreck from an oxygen leak, left parked, so that some operators must shut the valve to the oxygen bottle when they finish flying for the day. It must be easy to miss opening that valve again when you next go flying, particularly if you don't check that the mask is flowing.
I will never forget looking at the wreckage of a Bonanza that some, yes, doctor had been flying when he lost it on instruments, spiralling in and then pulling its wings off. Aside from the engine and prop, and the wheels, the largest piece of that airplane that you could recognize as such was the baggage compartment door, still nice and shiny. The rest was just mangled junk
I remember, too, one fellow who told me in all seriousness that he depended on his autopilot for flight in IMC in his new Cessna 182, that, yes, he knew his basic instrument flying skills were not very good, but he knew how to input commands to the autopilot that should keep his airplane under control for him.
Man, that's like dangling from one silken thread over an abyss, isn't it? But that guy had a lot more money than I did (some guy working at Burger King had a little more money than I did), so that he wasn't very interested in whatever some scrawny CFII had to tell him. In fact, I think he thought I only wanted to sell him some flight instruction, to teach him some skills he probably would never need.
I was looking again at the operating manual PDF that Con-pilot linked to. There's a check of oxygen quantity and shut-off valve position on the pre-flight walk-around, and there's a check that the mask flows in the pre-start checks.
A friend told me about a King Air that turned itself into a burned-out wreck from an oxygen leak, left parked, so that some operators must shut the valve to the oxygen bottle when they finish flying for the day. It must be easy to miss opening that valve again when you next go flying, particularly if you don't check that the mask is flowing.
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Thanks for that insight, Dreamland. It might have escaped my notice that the King Air and the TBM are dissimilar, so it was good of you to point that out. Every time I make a post, I depend on alert readers such as yourself to keep me on the straight and narrow, and someone usually comes through like a champ.
The thing is, you may get a slow leak somewhere between the oxygen bottle, usually located somewhere outside the pressure cabin, and the rest of the system. The oxygen then slowly fills the fuselage until it finds something combustible such as grease. This is not a common problem; it needs a leak that's small enough to go unnoticed, but big enough to cause a fire after an extended period when the aircraft is sat parked, so that most operators don't bother to shut off the valve at the oxygen bottle.
To ensure against this (uncommon) fire risk, you need to physically shut off the valve at the bottle. It's not enough to just flip a switch in the cockpit, because the leak can be anywhere between the bottle and the solenoid control valve. Of course you must also remember to open the valve before flight, when there will be no visual cue that it's closed, just looking at it. You will need to twist it to make sure it's open.
As you can see from reading the checklist for the TBM, it has what seems to be a check of the shut-off valve itself, there on the bottle, as part of the preflight, along with checking the oxygen pressure at the bottle, which means checking the amount of oxygen available.
There are many accidents which happen to owner-pilots, people who multi-task, when "operating the airplane" may not be what they bring 100% of their attention to. Then you may see rushed or even absent pre-flights because of time pressure.
It's not just a problem with low skills, what we often take to be the case with non-professional pilots. Some non-professionals are real geniuses who can do many different tasks to a very high level of competence, when flying is not all that difficult. The problem then can be lack of full attention to something simple.
For instance, there have been at least two fatal accidents I am aware of where owner-pilots were able to get airborne in just a few minutes, although their gyro instruments needed more time than that to stabilize. They blazed through the start-up and taxi checks and were wheels-up before they had their attitude instruments working properly, when it takes skill to kill yourself that way.
One guy was someone I had flown with just a few months before, spending quite a bit of money on a type-rating on one of his aircraft hoping to use him as a contact for a change of scene. I was pretty peed-off when I read about how he managed to kill himself in his King Air, but from what I had seen during our check ride, rushing everything, I could see how he must have done that.
The thing is, you may get a slow leak somewhere between the oxygen bottle, usually located somewhere outside the pressure cabin, and the rest of the system. The oxygen then slowly fills the fuselage until it finds something combustible such as grease. This is not a common problem; it needs a leak that's small enough to go unnoticed, but big enough to cause a fire after an extended period when the aircraft is sat parked, so that most operators don't bother to shut off the valve at the oxygen bottle.
To ensure against this (uncommon) fire risk, you need to physically shut off the valve at the bottle. It's not enough to just flip a switch in the cockpit, because the leak can be anywhere between the bottle and the solenoid control valve. Of course you must also remember to open the valve before flight, when there will be no visual cue that it's closed, just looking at it. You will need to twist it to make sure it's open.
As you can see from reading the checklist for the TBM, it has what seems to be a check of the shut-off valve itself, there on the bottle, as part of the preflight, along with checking the oxygen pressure at the bottle, which means checking the amount of oxygen available.
There are many accidents which happen to owner-pilots, people who multi-task, when "operating the airplane" may not be what they bring 100% of their attention to. Then you may see rushed or even absent pre-flights because of time pressure.
It's not just a problem with low skills, what we often take to be the case with non-professional pilots. Some non-professionals are real geniuses who can do many different tasks to a very high level of competence, when flying is not all that difficult. The problem then can be lack of full attention to something simple.
For instance, there have been at least two fatal accidents I am aware of where owner-pilots were able to get airborne in just a few minutes, although their gyro instruments needed more time than that to stabilize. They blazed through the start-up and taxi checks and were wheels-up before they had their attitude instruments working properly, when it takes skill to kill yourself that way.
One guy was someone I had flown with just a few months before, spending quite a bit of money on a type-rating on one of his aircraft hoping to use him as a contact for a change of scene. I was pretty peed-off when I read about how he managed to kill himself in his King Air, but from what I had seen during our check ride, rushing everything, I could see how he must have done that.
