Ferry Flights - Formation Spacing ?
Thread Starter
Ferry Flights - Formation Spacing ?
I just saw a 6 ship fly over Phoenix at high altitude - single engine, possibly F-16s up around FL370. The formation spacing was 4 abreast estimated half mile separation, with 2 trailers maybe 600 yards astern with the same half mile spacing.
What is the standard USAF/RAF protocol for a long distance FJ formation ?
What is the standard USAF/RAF protocol for a long distance FJ formation ?
Could that have been the Irish Air Force Precision Demonstration Team doing a practice show?
Fonsini
I will attempt a semi sensible answer. Usually within 1nm horizontally and 200' vertically is sensible. Whatever you do, don't go blind.
When crossing the pond it is normal to have a bigger block of airspace to allow more width. Provided you're VMC of course.
On the Jag we never got high enough to have to worry about RVSM but in the Hawk we do regularly. Those that are not RVSM compliant will only be alllowed up there if it's not busy since they need more vertical wiggle room. Those that are will typically stick with the rules I mentioned above.
I have no idea whether Vipers are RVSM compliant or even what the USAF do on ferries. I imagine it's similar though.
BV
I will attempt a semi sensible answer. Usually within 1nm horizontally and 200' vertically is sensible. Whatever you do, don't go blind.
When crossing the pond it is normal to have a bigger block of airspace to allow more width. Provided you're VMC of course.
On the Jag we never got high enough to have to worry about RVSM but in the Hawk we do regularly. Those that are not RVSM compliant will only be alllowed up there if it's not busy since they need more vertical wiggle room. Those that are will typically stick with the rules I mentioned above.
I have no idea whether Vipers are RVSM compliant or even what the USAF do on ferries. I imagine it's similar though.
BV
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According to this document "EUROCONTROL Specification for harmonized Rules for Operational Air Traffic (OAT) under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) inside controlled Airspace of the ECAC Area" everybody needs to stay within 1nm and 100' of the formation leader.
F-16 are not RVSM approved, but normally during ferry flights we get to go above FL280 to be able to get to our destination without a fuel stop. Best cruise for the model I fly and when in tactical configuration is from FL320 and up once the fuel is burned.
F-16 are not RVSM approved, but normally during ferry flights we get to go above FL280 to be able to get to our destination without a fuel stop. Best cruise for the model I fly and when in tactical configuration is from FL320 and up once the fuel is burned.
Avoid imitations
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Gotta get good spacing for those chemtrails to get best coverage....
Thread Starter
Thanks all - I think Bob Viking and F-16GUY best nailed it down to specifics, and the formation I saw fell into those horizontal/vertical parameters, at least as far as I could tell.
I always imagined that maintaining safe separation on a 6 hour ferry flight with half a dozen other aircraft buzzing around you would be pretty hard going, especially in a single seat, and even more so if you need to go heads down for instrumentation checks etc.
This near miss was a 2 ship Italian formation on a ferry flight that was caused by a downed transponder, also happened to be F-16s, I think the formation lead was heads down until the last moment and I wondered if his number 2 was more focused on lead than the airspace ahead of them. Your thoughts always appreciated.
I always imagined that maintaining safe separation on a 6 hour ferry flight with half a dozen other aircraft buzzing around you would be pretty hard going, especially in a single seat, and even more so if you need to go heads down for instrumentation checks etc.
This near miss was a 2 ship Italian formation on a ferry flight that was caused by a downed transponder, also happened to be F-16s, I think the formation lead was heads down until the last moment and I wondered if his number 2 was more focused on lead than the airspace ahead of them. Your thoughts always appreciated.
Last edited by Fonsini; 25th Aug 2017 at 14:32.
Another attempt at a sensible answer; in my time on the Tonka, we would usually use either an Arrow formation or maybe Chivenor Battle but it would probably look more like a gaggle. Main thing was....give yourself enough space to not hit anyone.
Sadly, that didn't work on a trail across Canada when 1 Tonka collided with another. 1 landed safely, the other didn't. Both crew members ejected but nearly died from exposure before they were rescued.
Sadly, that didn't work on a trail across Canada when 1 Tonka collided with another. 1 landed safely, the other didn't. Both crew members ejected but nearly died from exposure before they were rescued.
Fighters don't often gain much in fuel efficiency by climbing much higher than the tropopause (normally 36,000 in the UK) there is sometimes benefit in climbing higher in to a jet stream if it is from behind. They do however benefit a great deal from the ability of flying higher than most airliners and thus receive direct track to their requested location.
Anything above FL400 (40,000ft) which many fighters are capable of will normally mean you avoid the crowds.
I am aware before anyone jumps on my back that many airliners are capable of climbing higher than they often cruise at.
Mr Vice
Anything above FL400 (40,000ft) which many fighters are capable of will normally mean you avoid the crowds.
I am aware before anyone jumps on my back that many airliners are capable of climbing higher than they often cruise at.
Mr Vice
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Fighters don't often gain much in fuel efficiency by climbing much higher than the tropopause (normally 36,000 in the UK) there is sometimes benefit in climbing higher in to a jet stream if it is from behind. They do however benefit a great deal from the ability of flying higher than most airliners and thus receive direct track to their requested location.
Formation wise, a 4 ship will normally fly some sort of container formation unless clouds are encountered. In that case the formation will close it up to loose echelon and tighten it up some more if required.
Crossing the pond will normally be done around FL250, since the AR speed is only 310KTS. At this speed and altitude heavy jets might be very close to the backside of the power curve (dry power), so we prefer not to go higher. A single KC-135 will normally tow 4 to 6 F-16's depending on the route. Here we will normally fly loose echelon to fighting wing with up to 3 aircraft on each side of the tanker.
Crossing the pond at FL250, you get to se more ships then airplanes....
PS. I'm pretty sure modern fighters with beefier engines like the Typhoon and F-22 will prefer to climb to mid block 4 or higher to conserve their gas. Maybe some Tiffy or Raptor driver can confirm?
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I think "Visual Loose Gaggle" is the RAF's preferred FJ transit formation, always seems to work.
And how. XI Sqn (in Tornado F3 days) 'rapid' departure from Leeming (to the unpleasantness of GW1) totally blocked the old Blue One at OTR for hours. They 'scrambled' when they became serviceable.
The LATCC Supervisor was doing his nut to me over the phone, but it was 'coordinated' 'maybe'.
And I didn't use the codeword.
And how. XI Sqn (in Tornado F3 days) 'rapid' departure from Leeming (to the unpleasantness of GW1) totally blocked the old Blue One at OTR for hours. They 'scrambled' when they became serviceable.
The LATCC Supervisor was doing his nut to me over the phone, but it was 'coordinated' 'maybe'.
And I didn't use the codeword.
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