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Old 1st May 2017, 17:36   #61 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
"...strip defence budget for favoured sectors" Yes, exactly.

"..as the Tories have done..." er, by that you mean pay for all the stuff ordered by Tony and Gordon but not paid for or budgeted?
Shot. Since 2010 the Tories have;
Ringfenced NHS spending.
Raised pensions by use of the triple lock.
Raised overseas aid spending by billions.
These are just some of the Tories favoured sectors. And whilst at it they have increased the national debt to it's highest level ever and we are still running a deficit.

Most of the stuff Tony and Gordon ordered the Tories cut.
Nimrod.
Reduced Chinook order.
Harrier although the upgrade had been paid for before they cut it.
I could go on but I'm sure you get my point.
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Old 1st May 2017, 17:59   #62 (permalink)
 
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Shot.
Just to clarify I do not support the Labour party and I think the Conservatives record on defence is equally if not as bad. As long as people (esp current and ex mil) are prepared to pretend all the problems are caused by Labour then the Tories will continue to get away with it. Also as long as papers like the DM are prepared to twist stories then real arguments get lost in the nonsense.

Anyway what were you doing at a Labour conference, infiltrating?
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Old 1st May 2017, 21:31   #63 (permalink)
 
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I suspect John McDonnell will be tomorrow's news and the EU leaks will fade. For those who haven't seen it he chose to speak at and march in a May Day rally organised by the British Communist Party. Usual stuff, comrades together type thing, stand together to overthrow the Tories. The Communist Party are not fielding any candidates in the GE and are urging their supporters to vote Labour as the current Labour leadership share the same principles and aims. These include unilateral disarmament, withdrawal from NATO and large defence cuts.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 20:58   #64 (permalink)
AR1
 
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I'm a Grandfather now. A couple of weeks back, when we had the fireworks display and I pondered the consequences of escalation, I came to the conclusion that under no circumstances would I invite the consequences of a Preemptive nuclear strike, yes, I'm making the assumption that others that hold them would not feel the requirement to strike first should we not have them, but there's an awful lot more countries out there that are in that position. I do not want my descendants to depart in a flash of light or poisoned slow time. Maybe I'm getting old, but I'm in agreement with JC.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 21:17   #65 (permalink)
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AR. While I find it difficult to imagine us using NW against bit players I don't think non nuclear states such as Germany or Denmark could be considered as safe from nuclear strike.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 05:25   #66 (permalink)
 
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Steady on Pontius. I know the brexit negotiations have got off to a bad start. But using trident on a couple of the opposition is playing our ace card a bit early
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Old 3rd May 2017, 07:32   #67 (permalink)
 
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CSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by cornish-stormrider View Post
......nuclear weapons.

someone has to be first to give them up.
Ukraine did. And look where that got them.

Regards
Batco
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Old 3rd May 2017, 07:52   #68 (permalink)
 
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AR1
I think history teaches us that charismatic tyrants, despots and psychopaths sometimes rise to lead nations. To counter that possibility; democratic, secular and sane nations must hold the balance of power. Yes, the sane nations can be vulnerable to a first strike but not necessarily and, less so due to the power they have. Basic nuclear weapons are technologically available to many nations, they cannot be un-invented.

OAP
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Old 3rd May 2017, 10:20   #69 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BATCO View Post
CSR


Ukraine did. And look where that got them.

Regards
Batco
Indeed
And look at the wider history of the region going back to pre communism times then factor in the NATO posturing and push to encircle Russia.

Don't get me wrong
I'm no fan of Putin but to constantly treat them like the enemy and that we follow America's lead after the innumerable screw ups they have made puts us in a position where the Russians view us with distrust to start with

How about we look to move forward in the world
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Old 3rd May 2017, 11:57   #70 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornish-stormrider View Post
How about we look to move forward in the world
CSR
Any predictions on who might then follow us out of the nuclear club?

AVan
How so? The proposition was made that UK give up nuclear weapons as an example to the rest of the world. I responded by raising the case of a country that had given up nuclear weapons.

Regards
Batco
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Old 3rd May 2017, 12:48   #71 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BATCO View Post
....
AVan
How so? The proposition was made that UK give up nuclear weapons as an example to the rest of the world. I responded by raising the case of a country that had given up nuclear weapons.

Regards
Batco
"Looking from a distance", I see no problem if UK keeps its status. It is definitely some sort of a national pride (at least for many), and if people are proud of it, why not. Especially as the country is likely the most stable politically among all in the "club".
P.S. We probably did not understand each other on Ukraine. My point was that some countries that got rid of NW are doing well (KZ), and some - not (UA). It does not help keep or loose internal stability.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 15:34   #72 (permalink)
 
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The basic proposition would seem flawed however idealistic or keen one is to be rid of nuclear weapons. Can you give ANY instance of a negotiation where handing ones opponent everything they want incentivises them to do so? ... whether it's paying a plumber in full then hoping he'll prioritise your job...or paying 100billion to EU hoping it will lead to a reasonable trading relationship!

Last edited by ShotOne; 3rd May 2017 at 19:24.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 17:38   #73 (permalink)
 
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100 BILLION, ShotOne

OAP
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Old 3rd May 2017, 19:32   #74 (permalink)
 
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Thank you, OAP. Millions, billions; the commission seem to have made up the numbers on the day. Just so long as it's a gigantic figure pour encourager les autres!
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Old 4th May 2017, 07:23   #75 (permalink)
 
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Surely we can beat them at their own game? Just think of an even larger number! 150 billion, there I've done it. Oh, wait....
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Old 4th May 2017, 11:43   #76 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
P.S. We probably did not understand each other on Ukraine. My point was that some countries that got rid of NW are doing well (KZ), and some - not (UA). It does not help keep or loose internal stability.
Kazakhstan will continue to do well, so long as it stays on the right side of Putin. Ukraine has nothing to do with "internal stability".
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Old 6th May 2017, 10:51   #77 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Nothing to do with military aviation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Military Aviation
A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support...etc.
So one could argue it's for you not about you.

(I realise that for some people the fact that it might not be about them would lead to a serious dent in their ego!)
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Old 6th May 2017, 12:09   #78 (permalink)
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WW, how long before Harrier pilots join us BOF?
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Old 6th May 2017, 16:53   #79 (permalink)
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With genuine apologies to Albert, Brian - I had hoped the manifestos would have been out way before now (for scrutiny of their respective military matters by the learned people on here) but apparently they wont even be before next week (I read somewhere else).
Thinking its going to be such a whitewash now will the manifestos even come out?
And its such a lot riding on it as well- Nuclear deterrent and where they the ICBM bombers are based (country), Expeditionary air warfare, present RAF strategic bombing policy to bring about regime change (because that's what they are doing isn't it?), support of Middle Eastern nations in this pursuit (dubious or otherwise), aviation arms exports to the previously mentioned, P6, unequivocal support to the USA, pre-emptive nuclear strikes on Russia......its all in the mix.
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Old 6th May 2017, 16:58   #80 (permalink)
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Junket is frankly unbelievable in his present petty nastiness. I forgot to mention also our continuing membership of NATO. We will probably do a UDI and leave that particular organization if we suffer the wrath of the EU organization over Brexit....why should we even think about remaining within NATO setting tripwires in Poland and piling in money if we get stiffed? I said this the day after the Brexit vote on here. If we get stiffed over leaving the EU we will leave NATO - I can see it easily happening. I can easily see an opportunistic group or leader taking this up in the near future.
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