ATC versus Met.
Thread Starter
ATC versus Met.
Just for starters:
The weather was iffy for other than the aces, but Met subsequently reported a visibility just above limits for those less gifted.
DATCO "Your vis is wrong, its only xxxx!"
Duty Observer "wait one"
DATCO " and ?"
S Met O "Can we come to an arrangement? We will not attempt to control a/c movements, and you will not do weather obs. ?
DATCO " ............................................................
The weather was iffy for other than the aces, but Met subsequently reported a visibility just above limits for those less gifted.
DATCO "Your vis is wrong, its only xxxx!"
Duty Observer "wait one"
DATCO " and ?"
S Met O "Can we come to an arrangement? We will not attempt to control a/c movements, and you will not do weather obs. ?
DATCO " ............................................................
Well, forecasting is a bit of an art and a science. I have been sold a few pups.
The worst two were both runway condition reports and frozen deposits. One was Civvi, the other was Mil. Both were totally incorrect, as I discovered after landing!
OTOH, over 40 years of flying I generally found that both Met and ATC gave a top service and I thank all those involved for their hard work.
OAP
The worst two were both runway condition reports and frozen deposits. One was Civvi, the other was Mil. Both were totally incorrect, as I discovered after landing!OTOH, over 40 years of flying I generally found that both Met and ATC gave a top service and I thank all those involved for their hard work.
OAP
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
OAP, I was once snow controller at Waddo much to the annoyingly of SATCO, and I have to say I agreed with him but orders was orders.
We worked flat out from Friday night to get an aircraft back from Goose on Sunday. MT starred first clearing the western taxiway. Two perfectly cleared strips with a two foot tall dividing barrier of ice down the centre.
Then came the ploughs, they ploughed to within 5 feet of the edge of the runway clearing the lights in the process. They couldn't be replaced until the thaw. The best was the snow blowers. They cleared 90% of the runway of ice.
The captain was informed as he made his approach. "Where is the 10% remaining?"
"All over, about a square foot of ice in every square yard."
Supply Sqn really was the best, and I mean it, they provided those arctic eye shields to protect against snow blindness and blown ice crystals. They also provided pot per mag to spray the eastern snow banks that were otherwise invisible in the late afternoon sun.
Met? CAVOK.
We worked flat out from Friday night to get an aircraft back from Goose on Sunday. MT starred first clearing the western taxiway. Two perfectly cleared strips with a two foot tall dividing barrier of ice down the centre.
Then came the ploughs, they ploughed to within 5 feet of the edge of the runway clearing the lights in the process. They couldn't be replaced until the thaw. The best was the snow blowers. They cleared 90% of the runway of ice.
The captain was informed as he made his approach. "Where is the 10% remaining?"
"All over, about a square foot of ice in every square yard."
Supply Sqn really was the best, and I mean it, they provided those arctic eye shields to protect against snow blindness and blown ice crystals. They also provided pot per mag to spray the eastern snow banks that were otherwise invisible in the late afternoon sun.
Met? CAVOK.
Thread Starter
I seem to remember that runway state was strictly nothing to do with Met: we did every colour of the rainbow except BLK.
I can sing a rainbow
RED AMB YLO GRN WHT BLU.
Was there not a gradation of YLO too?
I can sing a rainbow
RED AMB YLO GRN WHT BLU.
Was there not a gradation of YLO too?
Thread Starter
I don't think RAFG or NATO used YLO 1 and YLO 2.
I do have a tale about "Colour Boards".
This was at Main Met JHQ Rheindahlen c. 1978.
Methods were steam not electronic, colour states came in appended to obs and specials from all over Europe. MMO Rheindahlen conceived the idea of magnetic coloured Smarties on a metal sheet bearing a NW Europe map showing every airfield. P Met O went off to talk Workshops into cutting the metal, and his sidekick was despatched to buy the Smarties.
Came the Grand Christening. Jever is WHT said the assistant. WHT Smartie, up to board, release, thuds on ground. "Try another Smartie!" Thud. Thud ...
PMetO concluded "inverse square law, fablon plus map plus glue is too thick, Smarties too weak".
One assistant, braver than the rest, offered the thought that, although aluminium was a nice lightweight board, perhaps steel would be an improvement?
They were still sniggering 6 months later when I was posted in.
I do have a tale about "Colour Boards".
This was at Main Met JHQ Rheindahlen c. 1978.
Methods were steam not electronic, colour states came in appended to obs and specials from all over Europe. MMO Rheindahlen conceived the idea of magnetic coloured Smarties on a metal sheet bearing a NW Europe map showing every airfield. P Met O went off to talk Workshops into cutting the metal, and his sidekick was despatched to buy the Smarties.
Came the Grand Christening. Jever is WHT said the assistant. WHT Smartie, up to board, release, thuds on ground. "Try another Smartie!" Thud. Thud ...
PMetO concluded "inverse square law, fablon plus map plus glue is too thick, Smarties too weak".
One assistant, braver than the rest, offered the thought that, although aluminium was a nice lightweight board, perhaps steel would be an improvement?
They were still sniggering 6 months later when I was posted in.
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ICE
As an SAC AATC at Wattisham back in the days of MDA's (Oh all right: Master Diversion Airfields, open 24/7 for poor pilots in distress) and not long before the introduction of Mu-Meters. Winter of '70/'71 About 03:00 Met pushes out ice warning to DATCO and DATCO tells me to go and do a braking action (BA) test on the main drag. Get the Landrover up to 30MPH and slam on brakes - Landrover comes grudgingly to a halt, so, call the tower on Pye (long before Storno!) and call "BA moderate."
Right, back up to 30, repeat brake slamming and landrover tries to take over directional control and almost disregards the braking request. Call tower "BA poor".
Right last go, same as before, up to 30 hit brakes and watch the tower come into view, right to left, moving across wind screen, disappearing past the left window only to re-appear later in about the 1.30 position as momentum dies. Call tower BA Nil. Then drive to MT to help the duty de-icer driver get the kit out onto the runway where he then soaks me in Konsin.
Right, back up to 30, repeat brake slamming and landrover tries to take over directional control and almost disregards the braking request. Call tower "BA poor".
Right last go, same as before, up to 30 hit brakes and watch the tower come into view, right to left, moving across wind screen, disappearing past the left window only to re-appear later in about the 1.30 position as momentum dies. Call tower BA Nil. Then drive to MT to help the duty de-icer driver get the kit out onto the runway where he then soaks me in Konsin.
Last edited by ACW342; 22nd Mar 2017 at 13:04. Reason: Add time.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
LB, similar, nice new STEEL boards in Bomber Ops at Akrotiri, captains' names and sundry other gems carefully printed on to acetate strips, two magnets glued to strips and Bob's yr uncle. Just a moment to update board or rearrange the strips.
As luck would have, all was ready when the Taceval team arrived. Entered the bombproof tar paper shack, passed through the outer door, through the inner air lock (to keep cold air in) and saw the super new and pristine display boards.
The inner door was spring loaded shut. As it slammed EVERY strip fell off the wall. Display 100%, resilience 0%.
As luck would have, all was ready when the Taceval team arrived. Entered the bombproof tar paper shack, passed through the outer door, through the inner air lock (to keep cold air in) and saw the super new and pristine display boards.
The inner door was spring loaded shut. As it slammed EVERY strip fell off the wall. Display 100%, resilience 0%.
Cat amongst pigeons time... but in my experience, ATC always seemed to be fantastically well staffed with lots of bods buzzing around, whereas Met was always manned on a shoestring with very little (any) spare capacity to cover 24 hr Ops.
The difference between Armed Forces and Civil Service I guess?
The difference between Armed Forces and Civil Service I guess?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ah Nick, remember Forecasters and Obs also got a shift allowance and probably overtime. Overtime can do wonders for manning deficiencies.
Thread Starter
Forecasters, being "officers" were deemed not to need overtime, but work for the love of it.
There was however something called Long Hours Gratuity. To qualify, a forecaster had to exceed xx hours in a 6 week period, where xx was a large number. Here is the rub.
LHG came out of a different budget from travel and subsistence, so as a forecaster approached LHG qualification, someone from another base [say Leeming] was moved in "to take over your shifts for a few days".
The trick was, after being thus shafted, to be the man who went to Leeming to stop their team qualifying.
That way madness lies.
There was however something called Long Hours Gratuity. To qualify, a forecaster had to exceed xx hours in a 6 week period, where xx was a large number. Here is the rub.
LHG came out of a different budget from travel and subsistence, so as a forecaster approached LHG qualification, someone from another base [say Leeming] was moved in "to take over your shifts for a few days".
The trick was, after being thus shafted, to be the man who went to Leeming to stop their team qualifying.
That way madness lies.
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LB, similar, nice new STEEL boards in Bomber Ops at Akrotiri, captains' names and sundry other gems carefully printed on to acetate strips, two magnets glued to strips and Bob's yr uncle. Just a moment to update board or rearrange the strips.
As luck would have, all was ready when the Taceval team arrived. Entered the bombproof tar paper shack, passed through the outer door, through the inner air lock (to keep cold air in) and saw the super new and pristine display boards.
The inner door was spring loaded shut. As it slammed EVERY strip fell off the wall. Display 100%, resilience 0%.
As luck would have, all was ready when the Taceval team arrived. Entered the bombproof tar paper shack, passed through the outer door, through the inner air lock (to keep cold air in) and saw the super new and pristine display boards.
The inner door was spring loaded shut. As it slammed EVERY strip fell off the wall. Display 100%, resilience 0%.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ricardian, but magnetic strip was far more hi tech with letraset replacing chinagraph in '72.
'Twas the same Bomber Ops that created the survival taxy plan that had everyone turning south away from the taxy way.
'Twas the same Bomber Ops that created the survival taxy plan that had everyone turning south away from the taxy way.
New METAR comes to tower. Gives weather as 'Nil' but it's peeing down outside having started just before the ob time. When I query this they say 'ah but it hasn't rained for 10 minutes yet'.
Neighbouring airfield (with met observer but no forecaster) reports they are 500m in fog. I tell met; forecaster says 'they must be wrong, I haven't forecast any fog within 25 nm'.
Neighbouring airfield (with met observer but no forecaster) reports they are 500m in fog. I tell met; forecaster says 'they must be wrong, I haven't forecast any fog within 25 nm'.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
When I was operating commercially out of Leeds/Bradford (nice airfield for fog), it was not unusual to come in of a morning to find the forecast CAVOK, but the actual foggy. The forecast was produced by a computer in Frankfurt, which had all the facts, but no local knowledge. Depart for wherever, and then wait for the weather to become suitable to return home. The best destination was Belfast (Aldergrove) where one could actually speak to a real, live forecaster. Then, with a good idea of when the weather would improve, blast off and be first back.
Very last deadline reached for the annual Exercise "Tense Caper", a mass formation and paradrop by 38Gp Argosy's, Beverley's, and Hastings (we know a song about that, don't we boys and girls?). The Colerne Station Met Officer turns up at briefing as before, only to be told that his services aren't needed this time as a Group Captain down from Group will be giving the Met Briefing to the Hastings crews, thank you very much.
His briefing was scarcely encouraging but it did at least just stay within the prescribed limits, unlike all its predecessors. The Hastings formation duly started up and trundled to the holding point prior to stream take-offs at 30 second intervals. As number 4 gets airborne, the Stream Commander in number 1 orders "penetration", and then "scatter", having stopped further take-offs. The remainder of the formation taxy back to dispersal, shut down, and head for the bars. They are joined eventually by those who got airborne and went their various ways before returning to base. Two of them had unbeknown to each other been orbiting Bath, which they considered a good wheeze as it was a prohibited area and thus free of any conflicting traffic, only to discover that they had both been at the same altitude, and circling in opposite directions.
The moral of the story? If the chap giving you a Met Briefing is in uniform be afraid, be very very afraid!
His briefing was scarcely encouraging but it did at least just stay within the prescribed limits, unlike all its predecessors. The Hastings formation duly started up and trundled to the holding point prior to stream take-offs at 30 second intervals. As number 4 gets airborne, the Stream Commander in number 1 orders "penetration", and then "scatter", having stopped further take-offs. The remainder of the formation taxy back to dispersal, shut down, and head for the bars. They are joined eventually by those who got airborne and went their various ways before returning to base. Two of them had unbeknown to each other been orbiting Bath, which they considered a good wheeze as it was a prohibited area and thus free of any conflicting traffic, only to discover that they had both been at the same altitude, and circling in opposite directions.
The moral of the story? If the chap giving you a Met Briefing is in uniform be afraid, be very very afraid!
Last edited by Chugalug2; 23rd Mar 2017 at 16:53.
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Over my years in the tower, I never clashed with Met. They worked to their orders and parameters, issued the Actuals and Forecasts, and that was fine.
At Tengah, the Lightnings sometimes used to call inbound [at high level] on Local and ask what the weather actually looked like out of the window. They had very few options, and Butterworth was a long way away for a Lightning diversion. And the local weather could be VERY localised!*
* I drove around for over 2 years in a Sprite with no hood [rotted]. Only got wet once ... you just took a different route into town, or sat under a garage forecourt canopy for 10 minutes
At Tengah, the Lightnings sometimes used to call inbound [at high level] on Local and ask what the weather actually looked like out of the window. They had very few options, and Butterworth was a long way away for a Lightning diversion. And the local weather could be VERY localised!*
* I drove around for over 2 years in a Sprite with no hood [rotted]. Only got wet once ... you just took a different route into town, or sat under a garage forecourt canopy for 10 minutes
MPN11
Did you buy mine? Nice white frog-eye, rotted hood etc (left Changi 1971).
I drove around for over 2 years in a Sprite with no hood [rotted]. Only got wet once
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