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Three Day Week

Old 12th Feb 2017, 18:57
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I thought Adminers already did the equivalent of a 3-day week, once you considered the lunches, daily trips to the gym outside of lunch, morning / afternoon NAAFI breaks, early stacks on Friday, time where sections close for 'training' and not to mention AT.

And yes, I am jealous. I'd quite like to spend more time with my family and friends, but I knew what I was getting in to when I signed on the dotted line. But it does grate somewhat when the pain of ever increasing tempo is so unevenly shared. I don't expect to see much difference in who is likely to accepted for reduced duties, and those who could really benefit from a 'respite period' are unlikely to be included.
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 19:13
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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It's quite simple, we need more people than we currently have. If we have the right number of people to undertake all of the tasks, people won't feel over-stretch and they'll stay.
jayc530 I agree with you!

Alfred the not so great. I disagree.. They appear to be trying to be EU PC. The armed forces are not like civilians. The manning levels were cut back far too far in the first place; leaving them with the crisis levels we see today. No wonder experienced staff, having been undermanned for so long will not put up with it anymore.

Maybe you could take your own advice !
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 19:21
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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OK, so who is going to do the real dirty work now. In 38 years, I moved my family 18 times, and spent many months away from home. My wife acted as the social comfort for wives of all ranks and we never had a permanent residence of our own. Its very possible that we were financially stupid, but that is how we were brought up in the military at that time. I have few regrets, I had a great time and a very enjoyable operational flying career. However, I really worry for the future of our Forces The military ethos has pretty much gone, it is now an enjoyable, but temporary job. Also ruined by the lawyers, politicians et al. What goes around comes around, will we wake up before it is too late?
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 20:44
  #24 (permalink)  
Danny42C
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Has the possibility of another war of some kind been taken into account ? If so, .
how would we propose to fight it ?

If not, what are our Forces for ?

The Romans had it right: "Si vis pacem, para bellum". Works every time.

Is Kim Jong-un likely to introduce a similar arrangement ?

Danny42C (silly old man, not "With it", I suppose).
 
Old 12th Feb 2017, 21:04
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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There's also the 'enhanced leave' option which is different to the 90 days mentioned earlier. Basically, you hand back 30 days of normal leave and in return you get to take 50 days as a single block. I asked my boss about taking it and the laughter could be heard at least 1 TACAN away...
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 21:09
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Should have brought this sort of thing in years ago for the RN. Said ages ago on here we needed to evolve the manpower deployment.
MG you are spot on ( just bothered to read your post, few are worth reading).
I was roundly and rudely slated for suggesting 2 years ago the Libya RN deployments were out of kilter and we needed to go onto something like a 6 week about structure.
Its not coincidence we have submarines out of service, ships broken and not deployed....think more deeply about it.
In civvy street< I just cant emphasise enough how easier life is for people who work, how well looked after they are compared to the RN.
Grow up PPruners.
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 21:11
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Danny its the pay and conditions mate> Fuc ksaske how long you been out? ?Do you actually work outside?
Danny how old actually are you? the Romans were 1600 years ago and they got wiped out in the end by invading forces.... they didn't evolve.
Mach 2 no its gone, its long gone.
1. Junior rates weren't looked after well enough. Many left, word got around among the remainers.
2. Collapse of morale following defeat in Iraq and Afghan ( oh yes - we were defeated).
3. ****e, utterly ****e comparable pay/crap fringe benefits.
4. Some diabolical leadership by our own Junior Officers. Young JRs wont wear it anymore. Class distinction/class derisory sneering (its very prevalent).
5. Downsizing of the remaining force added to unhappiness above.
6. Continuous IHAT added along the way to a feeling of vulnerability.
7. Buoyant employment market for go getters....

I could go on a hundred fold on why people should up sticks and leave. But let the remainers moan on about how it was in their day....

Last edited by Hangarshuffle; 12th Feb 2017 at 21:26.
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 22:19
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Hangarshuffle, I cannot believe that you can have had the temerity to have been so insulting towards one of PPRuNe's most erudite and valued elder statesmen, Danny42C.

Personally I feel that the forum has tolerated your unpleasantness for long enough; the words of Oliver Cromwell to the Long Parliament are most apt in your case.
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 22:51
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Danny its the pay and conditions mate> Fuc ksaske how long you been out? ?Do you actually work outside?
Danny how old actually are you? the Romans were 1600 years ago and they got wiped out in the end by invading forces.... they didn't evolve.

That really wasn't called for.
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 22:58
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Definitely time for you to pipe down, Hangarshuffle, and shuffle back to your hangar. You have fired some pretty ill-informed and biased salvoes since you joined this forum, but you have certainly picked the wrong target this time and you should be roundly ashamed of yourself. I am truly embarrassed that a former member of the Royal Navy should have written what you did.

It's thanks to brave men like Danny that you are free to spout such unpleasantness, so apologies are very much in order, although I won't hold my breath.

Jack
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Old 12th Feb 2017, 23:05
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Danny I tip my hat - I never knew the original Latin quote which we usually translate as "Whom the gods wish to destroy..."

As regards hangarshuffle's rather rude remarks, in a similar vein may I offer him this quote from Schiller:

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens (Against stupidity, the gods themselves battle in vain )
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Old 13th Feb 2017, 01:14
  #32 (permalink)  
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Meanwhile, on another planet nearby, the 9/80 schedule is very popular. Although 9 hour days mean an early start, getting every other Friday off is great. The military needs to incentivize its members, and if that means creative thinking on work patterns then do it.
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Old 13th Feb 2017, 03:34
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Hangarshuffle,

Danny has done far more for this Country than you will ever do! Have you not read of his historic service. Have a little respect please. You do certainly owe him an apology.

I feel the same unease as Danny about how our once proud armed forces are literally falling apart before us. Some very senior officers need to get a grip of things before we are left defenceless. Apparently the PM was unaware that none of our attack submarines were serviceable. Our T45 Destroyers have major engine issues and the RN is now trying to recruit retired crew up to age 60.

The government have cut our services far too far and treated our servicemen and women with utter contempt; so that now we are left in such a poor state.

The people of this country are totally unaware of the true position. I'm astounded at how such a large military budget can be so mismanaged and misspent to such a degree.

The first Duty of Government is Defence of this Country. It seems that a few people need reminding of that at all levels.

Last edited by Out Of Trim; 14th Feb 2017 at 20:01.
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Old 13th Feb 2017, 05:50
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Whether we like it or not, the Forces reflect Society. 15 years ago the arguments were about gays serving or women going into forward areas; 25 years ago it was whither women aircrew. Admin officer training in the early 1990s still taught JOs to counsel pregnant airwomen to seek an abortion or leave the Service. None of those changes have weakend the forces. Offering more flexibility to encourage people to stay cannot be a bad thing. We can all probably think of good, trained people who left out of frustration of a 'system' that could take no account of personal circumstances. I think (from my own experience) of the archaic rules 'expecting' spouses to accompany the SP into hardship/high threat assignments. If they don't, allowances suffer, CEA is withdrawn, appraisals coloured and so on.
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Old 13th Feb 2017, 05:50
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Ultimately part of the problem is innacurate and sensationalist reporting entering the media which is 'sexed up' for a good story (e.g. T45s or Attack submarines), coupled with a lack of understanding about what the trial actually is.

Fundamentally one of the great self-perpetuated myths of the military is that every man is poised in a warry unit, ready to deploy at a moments notice to inflict harm in foreign lands. The reality is that a lot of the military work is routine, often quite mundane, and can easily be done in a variety of working patterns. Very few parts of HM Forces either work 24/7 or are on call 24/7, and the vast majority of sites are often working a core 0800-1600 day for training, with plenty of padded out 3 day courses spread over 2 weeks, or long NAAFI breaks and extended lunches.

The working culture though that has also emerged over the years in some quarters (particularly FLC HQs) is an unhealthy one whereby people 'feel' they need to be at their desks, often in earlier and out later than the boss. People don't take all their leave, and people don't feel that their work life balance is particularly in kilter. People don't mind working hard for preparing for a deployment, but get fed up of being thrashed senseless doing long hours in an office job, as if a mark of productivity and output is to be sending emails at 9pm in the evening.

If we move to a system whereby people can ask to amend their working patterns for a short period of time, to get quality time with their family or help with childcare and just to spend time with loved ones is entirely sensible. If we give people a bit of time back, and give them the chance to spend time with family during a less operational tour, the chances are that they won't resign because they can't spend time with their family.

Just because people arent working a 5 day week in an office doesnt mean they are any less productive. If someone wants to take some unpaid leave to ensure that for 6 months they can look after a child, or care for a relative, is that really such a bad thing? Industry and Civil Service has adapted to the 21st century and often is very flexible on shorter weeks with compressed hours, or taking a short career break. What matters is the output, not the process by which the input is delivered.

The working world has changed, but we have persisted in a 19th century social hierachy and mid 20th century (at best) practises in a digital age. We are losing good talent hand over fist because people have had enough - often they don't want to leave, but their family has to come first. By giving people the means to spend time with them, to have a bit of work-life balance, we increase the chances of them staying longer - given the choice between having FS Bloggs out every Friday for a year on unpaid leave, or waiting another 15-20 years to recruit and train a replacement FS Bloggs, I know what I'd want.

Instead, the moment this broke, a bunch of retired dinosaurs started whinging to the papers about how awful it is that the military are trying to come up with working practises which motivate people to stay. This sort of obsolete attitude is a bloody good reason why people are leaving, and going to places which place a premium on offering ways to keep their people, not saying "Here is the only way of doing business and you should be grateful for it."

This is one of the most enlightened things the MOD has done for years to look out for its people, and as usual all some people can do is moan.
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Old 13th Feb 2017, 06:59
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Jimlad1.

Well said. I have nothing to add.

BV
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Old 13th Feb 2017, 08:48
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Jimlad1

a great post and a worthy read and I could not agree more with you; in a perfect world - its just a pity, I have never lived or served in one. It may well work in some parts of the armed forces, I have little experience of them. But I just don't see how it can work in a sustainable, deployable, Army one (unless of course the Army triples in size). Happen the trial might prove me wrong. I actually think I might have sat looking out the same window you are!

I may well be one of the retired dinosaurs you mention but I did have the courtesy to discuss his 'take on" this, with my son who is currently deployed for 7 months on Shader and has already been told he is likely to return within his present 2 year tour due to MOD changes, sorry I think its called restructuring now.

Last edited by MOSTAFA; 13th Feb 2017 at 09:42.
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Old 13th Feb 2017, 09:41
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Hangarshuffle must have been drunk

I read this in the Independent and it offers an amusing take on the subject, and how to help solve some of the problems with the NHS.

It's time the Government saw sense and sent the Army in to sort out the NHS crisis | The Independent

Military doctors and nurses would be priceless, but medically untrained troops also have a vital role to play. Squaddies could be positioned in A&E triage nurses’ consulting rooms, under orders to fire at will at anyone who turns up with an ear infection, sore foot, or any ailment best dealt with in the first instance by a pharmacist.

They’d have to shoot to kill, because the last thing any hospital needs is a gunshot victim bleeding out on a trolley midway through a refreshing 57-hour wait for an imaginary bed. But hey, cruel to be kind.
For anyone who likes war films, the discovery that military service can keep you from your family would come as a visceral shock. You remember the tear-jerking scene in The Dambusters, when Guy Gibson refuses to fly a crucial mission because his Great Aunt Tabitha in Rottingdean has a heavy cold, and he’s worried it will go to her chest if he doesn’t get home to nurse her in person.
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Old 13th Feb 2017, 09:41
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not sitting in a room with a window in my deployed location :-)

The problem that I have with the Army is that its full of a lot of very self important empires who seem determined to fight the battle of the Regimental Preservation Order, not the battle of keeping the talent and the Regiment going. My experience over many years with the Army is that it is genuinely culturally unable to change and take a long hard look at itself at how to do things better or differently. Instead it just assumes the whole 'oh but we have to be at contingency to defeat the Groombolian military tomorrow' philosophy, while preaching about how the military personnel are great because of their flexible 'can do' attitude.

A truly flexible 'can do' attitude would quickly grasp that a lot of the enabling bits of the Army don't really need to work a rigid 8-4 day 5 days per week in an office. Quite large chunks of the Army are office bound for large chunks of the time, and could easily compress hours, or look at doing things a little bit differently. Would the world really end if Sgt Bloggs didnt work every Friday? Would we be functionally defeated if Maj Jones took a 3 month unpaid leave to look after his kids?



I think we need to be better at defining what is operationally essential (e.g. working in a J3 post in a unit at 24hrs ntm probably isnt conducive to this), and what is routine business where flexibility needs to be the order of the day. Instead we fall back on the old 'but its easier to do things as they were' than to ask what difference it makes. Its not beyond the wit of man to look at posts, identify those that aren't conducive to alternative working arrangements, spot those that are, and flag that up in the job spec so that people are aware of the circumstances when they consider their posting preferences. Yes the needs of the Service have to come first, but we could make it a lot easier to consider the needs of our people with very little tangible difference to outputs.

The military has to recognise that it needs to work really hard to retain talent at the SR/mid seniority officer point, and that for the sake of a shorter working week or a few months unpaid leave, we are potentially losing a lot of people who cost us enormous sums to train and have many years of experience lost forever.
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Old 13th Feb 2017, 10:03
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Around 200 years ago, the navy and army had "half pay" officers. if you weren't needed on board ship or for regimental duties, you were sent home on half pay until such time as you were needed again, although in many cases this period of inactivity became permanent. Service pay in those days was not meant to provide an income on which you could live, as nearly all officers had private means of a sort, so half pay was certainly not enough to subsist on - just a way of keeping you at the behest of the Admiralty or War Office, should you be needed
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