V-Force Deterrent Targets
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apologies for thread drift.....serious subject too.
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PN: I have not seen a list of WarPac targets for a UK-solo National Retaliatory War Plan. IIRC you have yourself posted that you did not train for such a thing. K.Stoddart,Losing an Empire,Palgrave,2012,P89, comparing (it) with RAF/SAC Integrated Plan wef 1/7/58: “how (they) differed remains profoundly unclear”.
J.Baylis/K.Stoddart,Br.Nuc.Experience:Roles of Belief, Culture & Identity, OUP, 2014, P221 has a memo 5/10/62: Strategic Strike Planning by BC: “15 cities”. Any such solo sortie would be with weapons not under USAF custodianship. Yellow Sun Mk.2 was deployed from 1 July,1961, probably sufficient by 5/10/62 to address 15 targets. The period where RAF was solo-targeted was from CA Release of Blue Danube: 7/57 (Moore, Illusion, P.112) to target integration with SAC 1/7/58. RAF deployed upto 24 Blue Danube in this period.
R.Lamb: The Macmillan Years, J.Murray, 1995, P.303: Mac 7/61 learnt “doubtful our deterrent (could be used) independently (there are no) serious operational plans (to) do so”.
J.Baylis/K.Stoddart,Br.Nuc.Experience:Roles of Belief, Culture & Identity, OUP, 2014, P221 has a memo 5/10/62: Strategic Strike Planning by BC: “15 cities”. Any such solo sortie would be with weapons not under USAF custodianship. Yellow Sun Mk.2 was deployed from 1 July,1961, probably sufficient by 5/10/62 to address 15 targets. The period where RAF was solo-targeted was from CA Release of Blue Danube: 7/57 (Moore, Illusion, P.112) to target integration with SAC 1/7/58. RAF deployed upto 24 Blue Danube in this period.
R.Lamb: The Macmillan Years, J.Murray, 1995, P.303: Mac 7/61 learnt “doubtful our deterrent (could be used) independently (there are no) serious operational plans (to) do so”.
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Tornadoken, (thanks for the references) I am not sure where you found me saying we did not train for the national plan. All targets were prepared and studied to the same degree as the SACEUR targets. The QRA crews had go-bags with both targets and only after receiving Positive Release would they know which target to attack.
One thing I never checked was the potential route cross-over. Crews would be flying their primary SACEUR route to the go/no go line and would need to switch flight plans and charts etc to the secondary national targets. I never checked to see how close the two high level transit route were - one of the many details that were overlooked.
In the high-level mission days we used cities as training targets - Glasgow, Newcastle, Liverpool, London - but once we went low level, for obvious reasons we switched to less populated targets although Newcastle remained for some time for pop up attacks.
What was true is that we never had a force generation against the National Plan targets. One reason might have been the necessity of excluding USAF Exchange Officers from play.
I have spoken with Kristian and can say that while MacMillian was undoubtedly correct Murray was 100% wrong. National Plan target plans were generally changed in January each year with plans being issued around November to allow crews time to prepare and study the new routes.
One thing I never checked was the potential route cross-over. Crews would be flying their primary SACEUR route to the go/no go line and would need to switch flight plans and charts etc to the secondary national targets. I never checked to see how close the two high level transit route were - one of the many details that were overlooked.
In the high-level mission days we used cities as training targets - Glasgow, Newcastle, Liverpool, London - but once we went low level, for obvious reasons we switched to less populated targets although Newcastle remained for some time for pop up attacks.
What was true is that we never had a force generation against the National Plan targets. One reason might have been the necessity of excluding USAF Exchange Officers from play.
I have spoken with Kristian and can say that while MacMillian was undoubtedly correct Murray was 100% wrong. National Plan target plans were generally changed in January each year with plans being issued around November to allow crews time to prepare and study the new routes.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 28th Oct 2016 at 13:47.
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As an aside issue, crews used to draw up the route on a 1:3M chart and draw in early warning lines, SAM MEZ etc. They would generally use a common standard such as red for SAM and Blue for Early Warning. SAM site positions and other markings could be displayed in varying styles.
Around 1967 Group issued guidance on colours and styles etc but this still took a long time for the Plotter to draw up the detail. Sqn Ldr George Gayton (later Wg Cdr OC 85 Sqn), Ops 1 at HQ 1 Gp acquired a Mason Dyeline Printer (sic) and created a master chart so that the intelligence base was produced to a common standard and positions double checked. Before that it would have been possible that mis-plotting occurred between different target folders. This saved a lot of time.
Around 1967 Group issued guidance on colours and styles etc but this still took a long time for the Plotter to draw up the detail. Sqn Ldr George Gayton (later Wg Cdr OC 85 Sqn), Ops 1 at HQ 1 Gp acquired a Mason Dyeline Printer (sic) and created a master chart so that the intelligence base was produced to a common standard and positions double checked. Before that it would have been possible that mis-plotting occurred between different target folders. This saved a lot of time.
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Many years ago I flew to Moscow to take a team in to count tanks & planes under the various arms limitation treaties, as we taxied in the Nav got out of his seat, looked out the window & said, 'So that's what it looks like'.
When we asked what he meant he said that the airfield had been his primary target when he was on the V Force.
When we asked what he meant he said that the airfield had been his primary target when he was on the V Force.
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TTN, thanks, I know PF. Yellow Sun has just confirmed something I knew for almost 50 years but not confirmed. Archimedes on the 543 issue had the same feelings as I had, even though refuted by a former CO.
Getting there.
Getting there.
As an aside, any 90 or 543 crews of the period o n here?
We apparently had an ACP role. I don't know whether I was supposed to run to the squadron like my messmates but nobody ever complained. Anyway my stock excuse for being late, being a bachelor, was that I hadn't got back to the mess until 0730.
On one occasion our squadron commander was walking around with a black cloud above him. All our aircraft on the station were u/s except one and he was supposed to provide an ACP aircraft plus a spare. I suggested that he nominate a u/s aircraft as the prime and the serviceable one as the backup. i.e. Jump in, it's u/s; go to the backup.
A bulb flashed in his head and he zoomed off to his office.
Valiants never backed up fighters for QRA or anything like that.
On one occasion our squadron commander was walking around with a black cloud above him. All our aircraft on the station were u/s except one and he was supposed to provide an ACP aircraft plus a spare. I suggested that he nominate a u/s aircraft as the prime and the serviceable one as the backup. i.e. Jump in, it's u/s; go to the backup.
A bulb flashed in his head and he zoomed off to his office.
Valiants never backed up fighters for QRA or anything like that.
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That graphic was not comprehensive. It included Cranwell, which was correct, but omitted Llanbedr and Pershore, Prestwich and Leconfield. AFAIK Chivenor was not a dispersal. Elvingdon was another missing.
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I worked on V bomber flight simulators quite a number of years ago, the simulation included target maps, I think a number of targets were in East Germany nd Poland, sites of weapon launch sites.
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EN, do you remember when and where you were?
The NBS trainer used synthetic charts with a representative topography but wholly fictitious. Towns had names like SSEGRUB or NAELCAM and so on.
The NBS trainer used synthetic charts with a representative topography but wholly fictitious. Towns had names like SSEGRUB or NAELCAM and so on.
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A question r/e dispersal - assuming it;'s no longer classified - was it supposed to take place once the likelihood of an attack became significant?
Was there a set of decision trigger points?
Was there a set of decision trigger points?
Slight thread drift but the current edition of Flypast is doing a special V Force issue. As well as an excellent article about tanking on 214 in the 70s ( 
) there is an interesting article on Skybolt. One thing that surprised me was that if Skybolt had got into RAF service there would have been a continuous airborne alert, of the kind operated by the USAF for many years. This was to have involved airborne patrols over Norway and in the Adriatic and Aegean. How this would have worked out in practice we'll never know, but it would have been hugely expensive compared with QRA. This will be old news to many old V Force hands, but coming along a little later I hadn't heard of it myself.
) there is an interesting article on Skybolt. One thing that surprised me was that if Skybolt had got into RAF service there would have been a continuous airborne alert, of the kind operated by the USAF for many years. This was to have involved airborne patrols over Norway and in the Adriatic and Aegean. How this would have worked out in practice we'll never know, but it would have been hugely expensive compared with QRA. This will be old news to many old V Force hands, but coming along a little later I hadn't heard of it myself.
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Slight thread drift but the current edition of Flypast is doing a special V Force issue. As well as an excellent article about tanking on 214 in the 70s ( ) there is an interesting article on Skybolt. One thing that surprised me was that if Skybolt had got into RAF service there would have been a continuous airborne alert, of the kind operated by the USAF for many years. This was to have involved airborne patrols over Norway and in the Adriatic and Aegean. How this would have worked out in practice we'll never know, but it would have been hugely expensive compared with QRA. This will be old news to many old V Force hands, but coming along a little later I hadn't heard of it myself.
) there is an interesting article on Skybolt. One thing that surprised me was that if Skybolt had got into RAF service there would have been a continuous airborne alert, of the kind operated by the USAF for many years. This was to have involved airborne patrols over Norway and in the Adriatic and Aegean. How this would have worked out in practice we'll never know, but it would have been hugely expensive compared with QRA. This will be old news to many old V Force hands, but coming along a little later I hadn't heard of it myself.By the end of a week we were desperately struggling to supply serviceable a/c every shift. I think we kept going for a week, but we couldn't have maintained the workload on a continuous basis.
Mind you, for all we were told it might have been an exercise to find out how many more bodies and a/c we would need to do the job properly.
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TTN, I know of the trial. It was a Mk 1a and it would only have been commenced at a very high alert state.