Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Serviceman threatened with knife outside RAF base

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Serviceman threatened with knife outside RAF base

Old 21st Jul 2016, 18:40
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Age: 54
Posts: 1,511
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
It was only a matter of time until this happened.
Such a scenario has been of concern in Police circles for some time given that it takes very little effort to have an essentially unarmed, lone officer delivered to a place of your choosing at a time you set.
Tashengurt is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2016, 18:42
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 2,164
Received 46 Likes on 22 Posts
Those of us that experience the IRA attacks against service personnel, both here in the UK and in Germany, will recall that our duty was to be killed whilst bravely unarmed. Apparently being unarmed made us better, or something…. although I never paid much attention to the rambling briefs that tried to explain it all. I guess we were just grateful when they actually issued ammunition to the 'armed' guards.

I cannot see the UK ever arming off-duty military personnel. Carrying a weapon on a UK base in an operational theatre in the last 2 wars only came after armed attacks(!).
Just This Once... is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2016, 18:58
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: York
Posts: 517
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
On a pedantic note, would the MoD have enough weapons (assume we're talking pistols here) to arm every personnel, even with the reductions?
muppetofthenorth is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2016, 19:47
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: N. Spain
Age: 79
Posts: 1,311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Those of us that experience the IRA attacks against service personnel, both here in the UK and in Germany, will recall that our duty was to be killed whilst bravely unarmed. Apparently being unarmed made us better, or something…. although I never paid much attention to the rambling briefs that tried to explain it all. I guess we were just grateful when they actually issued ammunition to the 'armed' guards.

True but I could never find the magazine on my issue pickaxe handle
Shack37 is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2016, 20:26
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: The Alps
Posts: 3,127
Received 93 Likes on 49 Posts
Originally Posted by Chris Scott
This incident also calls into question the advisability of using headphones on both ears at a volume level that, in effect, renders the runner deaf to any audible danger signals - not to mention friendly or hostile calls from passers-by.
IIRC, over the years have there not been the odd (sex) attacks (probably a murder) on females jogging in public parks with their headphones on?-
chopper2004 is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2016, 20:39
  #26 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,468
Received 2,594 Likes on 1,098 Posts
Those of us that experience the IRA attacks against service personnel, both here in the UK and in Germany, will recall that our duty was to be killed whilst bravely unarmed. Apparently being unarmed made us better, or something…. although I never paid much attention to the rambling briefs that tried to explain it all. I guess we were just grateful when they actually issued ammunition to the 'armed' guards.

True but I could never find the magazine on my issue pickaxe handle
Shack37 is online now Report Post Quick reply to this message
Do you ever remember using up the life ex ammo we had, when we were live armed in Germany, on the ranges, by the time you had found something to hack through the thick plastic bag they were sealed in to load them, you would have been better throwing the damned things at them, and that was when we were live armed lol.

As for armed with personal weapons, it wouldn't need to be everyone, just enough to make it a deterrent... Not that I am condoning it, but Israel do ok with it, After all what is the difference between armed troops who can identify themselves as such, and plods...Incidentally when did it stop, as troops I believe used to carry their weapons in ww2
NutLoose is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2016, 20:40
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 2,164
Received 46 Likes on 22 Posts
Originally Posted by muppetofthenorth
On a pedantic note, would the MoD have enough weapons (assume we're talking pistols here) to arm every personnel, even with the reductions?
The MoD ordered 25,000 Glock pistols, so we would have to share or something.

By way of contrast, there are over 34,000 police officers in the NYPD; I don't think they take turns with their pistols.
Just This Once... is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2016, 20:48
  #28 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,468
Received 2,594 Likes on 1,098 Posts
Ohhhhhh that's easy for the Government, reduce the Armed services to 25k, problem solved.
NutLoose is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2016, 21:07
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 1,771
Received 17 Likes on 9 Posts
Common sense has to prevail, of course, but I'd hate to see the services go back to the days of the 70s when we never wore uniform in public.
I happened to be in a crew room at Yeovilton late last year when there was an announcement over the Tannoy which told all personnel not to display any sign of military membership off base. I must say that I found it very sobering to look at the solemn faces of those around me as they considered themselves as potential terrorist targets.
pulse1 is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2016, 21:12
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Age: 54
Posts: 1,511
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Pulse 1.
Experienced that during the Roal Moat episode.
A curious feeling.
Tashengurt is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2016, 21:16
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 350/3 Compton
Age: 76
Posts: 777
Received 352 Likes on 86 Posts
I remember that back in the 70s I obtained a firearms certificate from the local police for "personal protection on active service" and wore my Colt 38 auto in a shoulder holster under my flying suit in addition to the Browning on my waist. This was later replaced by a 357 magnum snub-nose. Now that was an equaliser! Never used either but they were great comforters. Only gun I used in anger was the trusty 30mm Aden.

Bet you cannot do that now!
Mogwi is offline  
Old 21st Jul 2016, 22:22
  #32 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,694
Received 38 Likes on 24 Posts
“What he reports is while he was running he becomes aware of the vehicle parked opposite him, but there was nothing about it that made him in any way suspicious of it, and it wasn’t until he was almost alongside it [that] he became aware of one of the occupants of the vehicle.”

Police could not rule out that there were more people in the car, Durham said.

“The attacker placed his hand on the victim’s shoulder and then on his wrist and started to pull him with a degree of force towards the vehicle,” he said. “Our victim resisted that, managed to break free, effectively fought free from that attack and rendered the first assailant – well, he effectively knocked him on the floor.”
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-at-raf-marham

So, he was running past the vehicle, parked opposite him and the attacker placed his hand on his shoulder then on his wrist and started to pull him towards the vehicle This didn't happen around the nearby village of Wormegay did it?
SilsoeSid is online now  
Old 22nd Jul 2016, 09:02
  #33 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 80
Posts: 16,777
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
SS, and the significance of that?
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2016, 09:07
  #34 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 80
Posts: 16,777
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
If personal weapons were authorised, given the general level of training in close protection, I think there would be a high risk of loss.

If weapons were authorised for carry then I think it would be prudent that they were only carried when two or more people were together - armed police patrol in pairs.

Should Servicemen in private housing be threatened there are other issues such as family at home alone.

In Germany a few years back, after the switch to UK number plates, it was easy to see Britmil cars from unit stickers on rear windows to many other clues.

In UK it was also easy spotting military personnel driving to work in civvies.

Persec is a huge problem.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2016, 09:19
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 257
Received 33 Likes on 8 Posts
so basically ditch the desert boot / brogue / chino combo and wear badly ironed shirts is the solution?
dagenham is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2016, 09:31
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South East of Penge
Age: 74
Posts: 1,788
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
In my time, one of the more cynical bits of advice given for non-specialists carrying personal weapons in the U.K. was , in the event of a confrontation , to throw the damn thing as far away as you could in one direction, whilst legging it in the other.
The closest, that I am aware of , to having been shot on an operation was when the guy standing next to me went down:

having been the victim of an ND from a Sterling being carried by the chap standing the other side of him.

Last edited by Haraka; 22nd Jul 2016 at 10:00.
Haraka is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2016, 09:57
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 72
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Just This Once...
Those of us that experience the IRA attacks against service personnel, both here in the UK and in Germany, will recall that our duty was to be killed whilst bravely unarmed. Apparently being unarmed made us better, or something…. although I never paid much attention to the rambling briefs that tried to explain it all. I guess we were just grateful when they actually issued ammunition to the 'armed' guards.

I cannot see the UK ever arming off-duty military personnel. Carrying a weapon on a UK base in an operational theatre in the last 2 wars only came after armed attacks(!).
In the early 70s, after an armed IRA unit was believed to be heading for the area, the airmen patrolling RAF Manston were issued with pickaxe handles.
sitigeltfel is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2016, 10:26
  #38 (permalink)  

Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Alles über die platz
Posts: 4,694
Received 38 Likes on 24 Posts
SS, and the significance of that?
Firstly it was the last part of the village name, however having googled a bit more ... don't click on this link unless open minded!

Anyway, suspects description on BBC twitter feed;
https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/stat...00665655558144



"Officers were called just before 3.30pm to reports a man was approached by two other men in the Burnthouse Road/Ladywood Road area.
Mirror Online

Isn't that in the MQ area !

SilsoeSid is online now  
Old 22nd Jul 2016, 10:44
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hmmm - this story is a bit weird.......

I'd hold off on the terrorist angle until there is some confirmation - two terrorists of ME appearance..... if they're local they're easy to find - if not a lot of coppers will be looking at a lot of CCTV... but why go all the way to Marham??

I can think of several scenarios where someone might be attacked by persons he actually knew but didn't want to talk to close & personal - they might be from Wonga for example.....

and (unfortunately) there are a number of cases where incidents have been totally fabricated for one reason or another

interestingly it's disapeared off the main BBC websites.......
Heathrow Harry is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2016, 11:17
  #40 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,468
Received 2,594 Likes on 1,098 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just This Once...
Those of us that experience the IRA attacks against service personnel, both here in the UK and in Germany, will recall that our duty was to be killed whilst bravely unarmed. Apparently being unarmed made us better, or something…. although I never paid much attention to the rambling briefs that tried to explain it all. I guess we were just grateful when they actually issued ammunition to the 'armed' guards.

I cannot see the UK ever arming off-duty military personnel. Carrying a weapon on a UK base in an operational theatre in the last 2 wars only came after armed attacks(!).


In the early 70s, after an armed IRA unit was believed to be heading for the area, the airmen patrolling RAF Manston were issued with pickaxe handles.
Brize they took them off us, and gave us empty muskets on the gate, then they were going to issue live rounds, but what followed was the muskets being removed and the good old pickaxe being returned.

I remember while we had muskets some unfortunate civi contractor turfed up and during a security check of his vehicle an air pistol was discovered, poor sod had obviously left it there for a long time as it wasn't in the best of condition, but he ended up spread eagled in the rain on the deck with a musket to his head bricking himself. Eventually he was sent to sit on the naughty step before being told to take it home and not to bring it back..

Personnel in NI were armed when in civi's and off base, as the theory goes you are not off duty, so is there a difference?

Last edited by NutLoose; 22nd Jul 2016 at 11:29.
NutLoose is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.