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UK's Carriers Left to Rust.

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UK's Carriers Left to Rust.

Old 26th Apr 2016, 11:44
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UK's Carriers Left to Rust.

This is an interesting development. Of course, if Scotland were to leave the UK, then they probably wouldn't get to build any of the UK's ships.

Rust at Rosyth: Furious unions say flagship Navy carriers being built at Rosyth will be left to rot if Clyde shipyard jobs are axed - Daily Record
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 13:20
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Mutinous talk from the GMB ... Anyone know how to 'Hot Wire' a carrier
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 13:20
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We call this preserving the industrial base in the US. It requires some very hard decisions at the highest levels of government to do this. The US lost its ability to build strategic transports when the C-17 line closed last year. The assumption is that it can be resurrected at some future date, but it's not entirely clear that is possible. On the shipbuilding front, we're down to two shipyards that can produce nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers and there are lots of hard decisions being made to preserve them. The Russians lost their ability to build large Navy ships decades ago, and their little adventure in Crimea/Ukraine was at least partially aimed at regaining that capability. Sadly for them, that adventure also cut off access to Ukrainian marine gas turbines, and combined with the cut off of German marine diesels, their shipbuilding industry is in dire straits because they have no (modern) indigenous sources for these major ship components.
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 13:26
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Originally Posted by CoffmanStarter
Mutinous talk from the GMB ... Anyone know how to 'Hot Wire' a carrier
Of course, doesn't everybody?
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 13:39
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OK Chesty you're in ... I've got a rather large pair of Bolt Cutters ... Let's see how our OC PPRuNe Raiding Party, Courtney, wants to play it
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 13:47
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The Blair government recognised this and published a policy paper called the "Defence Industrial Strategy" which codified (for the first time in the UK) the concept that certain industries and capabilities were nationally-significant strategic assets that should not be permitted to wither or be foreign owned.

On becoming Minister of Defence in 2010 Liam Fox (being a brainless arse who was under the impression that every day was "bring your best buddy to work day" in the Ministry of Defence) scrapped this policy as "ideologically unsound" saying that it was "socialist garbage" to even have such a strategy to interfere in the operation of the market. It was his view that Her Madge should always buy her military equipment off-the-shelf and from the lowest bidder, irrespective of nationality and regardless of the strategic consequences. Camoron, being very nearly as brainless in all respects, backed him in this in an act of neglect of his responsibilities for the defence of the realm that should really have resulted in some mild rebuke (like being hung, drawn, quartered and then having his head placed on a spike in whitehall as an example to others).

That this was a "bad idea"[tm] was a view which had cross-party support expressed loudly and frequently, for example in the 7th 2012-2013 session Defence Select Committee Report which said:

We believe that the absence of a defence industrial strategy which supports appropriate national sovereignty puts the UK at a disadvantage against competitor countries. Furthermore, we do not understand how we can have confidence in a national security strategy which does not show a clear grasp of what is needed for the defence of the United Kingdom, and how this can be ensured. We recommend that the Government reconsider the wisdom of not having a defence industrial strategy.

But wisdom and the camoron administration are essentially complete strangers. So whilst the USA (as standard-bearer for free-market capitalism) protects its strategic industries with rigid legislation like the Title 10 commitments [eg 10 USC Sec. 2464 and 10 USC Sec. 2466] the camoron administration carries on as a paid consultant and advocate for chinese industry and US defence contractors. To suggest this is less than ideal would be like calling the shooting down of MH17 an act of mild social deviation...

PDR
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 14:16
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Unhappy

Camoron, being very nearly as brainless in all respects, backed him in this in an act of neglect of his responsibilities for the defence of the realm that should really have resulted in some mild rebuke (like being hung, drawn, quartered and then having his head placed on a spike in whitehall as an example to others).
There's still time...

How come, whenever call me Dave has to make a decision he always makes the wrong one! Is it something in his Etonian schooling, that makes him unable to analyse a situation properly and, then use some common sense in the decision making process.

Perhaps he can use some of the £12 billion overseas aid budget to enable our shipyards to not be closed down. Some strategic industries need to be protected for the national interest.
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 14:25
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The difficulty in setting up protected strategic industries is that unions will take advantage of the situation not to preserve the industry nor the defense capability the industry provides, but to preserve union jobs. Given the political power of UK unions, I can understand how some politicians would balk at creating protected strategic industries.
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 14:56
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Ahh.... another Trade union boss for life no doubt, rattling his sabre.. If they did sit and rust at least he would be secure in his job for life, while his members get thrown to the wind..

And as for the Wicked Witch of the North, It is about time she realised that her "power base" is less that the total that voted for UKIP, between her and that cretin Corbyn with his "majority of squat" they both make me want to throw up..

rant over

They remind me of the miners, another bunch of herberts, that believed the world owed them a job.
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 15:12
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Originally Posted by Out Of Trim
Perhaps he can use some of the £12 billion overseas aid budget to enable our shipyards to not be closed down. Some strategic industries need to be protected for the national interest.
Money that the government has to borrow, yes borrow, to hand over to tyrants, dictators and despots. They know where their next S class Merc is coming from!
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 15:39
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Interesting piece on the BBC website:-

Shipping forecast: visibility moderate to poor

Douglas Fraser Business/economy editor, Scotland 25 April 2016From the section Scotland business

It's less than eight years since the Ministry of Defence forced the merger of shipbuilding rivals BAE Systems and Vosper Thorneycroft. It was judged a waste of public money to retain so much capacity for the Royal Navy. Even after that had slimmed down the workforce and capacity, the Ministry of Defence decided to close one of the remaining shipyards.
Portsmouth took the hit with a decision more than two years ago, but the workforce that straddles the Clyde between the Govan and Scotstoun yards in Glasgow also lost hundreds of jobs.

The unions accepted that, on the basis that there would be security for the remaining jobs. Yet much of this seems to be getting thrown up in the air. Having spent a lot of time and money in reducing the scale of naval shipbuilding, the Treasury has commissioned a National Shipbuilding Strategy.

Drumbeat

This announcement was buried in the paperwork published with the Budget last month. The review is to be completed by the Chancellor's autumn statement. Led by industry veteran Sir Alan Parker, it is hard to fathom what it's trying to do. The official position is that it's to "look at the potential to build a new complex warship every two years". That's a much slower 'drumbeat' than we've been used to. "World-class ships...while ensuring value-for money", said the MoD media statement, when the idea was first set out by the Chancellor, in January last year. It went on to say this would "ensure continued investment in UK warship production, help maintain jobs, provide new apprenticeships and develop advanced engineering skills". Yet isn't that what had already been decided for the Clyde yards?

Jobs were lost on the Clyde but long-term security was expected Trade unions point to the proposal for a "frigate factory", costing £200m and at Scotstoun, providing a covered shed facility for all-weather construction. More efficient shipbuilding could, at last, win some export orders, at which British shipbuilding has done very badly of late.
Shipyards in Germany, France and Spain are contracted to build warships for export, but rarely British ones. The Royal Navy commissions very high-spec ships, and uses EU procurement rules on strategic industries to ensure they are built in Britain.

So the Clyde yards don't have to compete internationally for that work. And other navies don't want to pay the high price of British standards and work. Ensuring capacity for exports is another part of Sir John Parker's (vague) remit. But instead of the £200m export-efficient frigate factory proposed by BAE Systems and heartily endorsed by unions, half that amount is being committed to upgrading Govan for the Type 26.

Anti-submarine

Whitehall's Budget austerity means that, instead of 13 ships planned, only eight are now to be ordered - eventually. The start date appears to have slipped from this year to the back end of next year, with a slower drumbeat meaning fewer jobs are likely. The timing, the workforce and the commitment to retaining skills is down to negotiation between BAE Systems and the MoD. The UK government says that the Type 26 commitment to the Clyde yards has not changed. It has placed orders for five Offshore Protection Vessels, to keep the yards busy-ish. They may be nice-to-have, but on a tight budget, their strategic value isn't clear.

The MoD is not saying where it wants to build the Type 31, which is a new designation for cheaper, lighter, less well-armed ships. Five of them are supposed to join the sophisticated anti-submarine capability of the Type 26s.

Northern powerhouse

The Parker Review is being seen by unions and industry experts as a way of opening up options for expanding warship-building capacity at English yards. It's worth remembering that the intention to have a review was set out by George Osborne in January last year and in Portsmouth, when Conservatives faced the prospect of punishment by voters for the Hampshire shipyard's closure. Portsmouth has not fully closed down. The yard may not be building ships, but it is being leased for repair work. Bear in mind also that Mr Osborne has a big personal and political project to boost the economy of the "northern powerhouse". So shipyard capacity in Merseyside, Cumbria and Tyneside could come into play, perhaps to build the Type 31, or parts of the Type 26.

And there's another aspect of the strategic decision that isn't openly admitted: UK ministers said, before the independence referendum, that yards in an independent Scotland could not expect Royal Navy orders. With that political issue still very much alive, the MoD could use the Shipbuilding Strategy to open up options for warship building in England, rather than being solely reliant on Scottish yards.

All this is clearly part of a political game, at which trade unions, BAE management and the MoD are experienced. It's no coincidence it's happening less than two weeks from an election and two months from the EU referendum. This is when all the players can get maximum leverage over the Treasury.
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 15:59
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Not sure there is a capacity to build in England anymore. River Tyne's ability has long gone- there is a relatively small yard at Hebburn and I forget its name (A and P maybe) that built I think the Flight Deck sections of the recent new carriers. Not sure about them building anything -no slipway. Swan Hunter are long gone and its workforce and architects mostly retired I think. Site was bulldozed and the cranes shipped to India.
Teeside does a bit of offshore work for O and G industry- jack up rigs I think. Hartlepool only dismantle ex USN last time I heard. Nothing at Sunderland at all really, although the Pallion yard still seems to operate as a small scale steel fabricator for offshore O and G but no cranes there as I recall.
Think that eras really gone for NE England. Taken for granted? The workers and skills have all dispersed or retired or are dead.
Cumbria - well not sure about them they haven't built anything large for the RN since the Albion and Bulwark.. Birkenhead hangs on but I have my doubts for their capacity. Belfast - mostly dismantle these days I recall.
England neglected this industry. Should have been nurtured, but then over a billion in taxpayers hard earned was spent propping it up for a while, then Thatch pulled the plug on it in the eighties and down it went. Steels going the same way now.
Over to China. Communism and or the Far East won in the end in this trade war.


KenV are you having a laugh about the unions? They're gone mate-outlawed and de-fanged by Thatch. Membership is a shadow of what it was.

Last edited by Hangarshuffle; 26th Apr 2016 at 16:12.
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 17:01
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Coff,

Big bolt cutters, black balaclavas, fake IDs, heaters and someone that knows how to drive a ship that isn't really finished yet. Anyone know if the engines are fitted yet? That might affect the getaway plan.
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 17:29
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I read that HMS Queen Elizabeth's engines, or rather Electric motors powered by Gas turbine generators are fitted. However, ship still being fitted out.

Not sure if Windows 10 installed yet! Be careful to not overload the system by plugging in any iPods or iPhones if the radar is running...


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Old 26th Apr 2016, 17:32
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Excellent, I have the original Windows 10 installation disc. I think we're on.
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 17:47
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How come, whenever call me Dave has to make a decision he always makes the wrong one!
Cameron is a Europhile. If you believe in the EU, there's no point worrying about keeping military production in the UK, because there'll soon be no UK military, only EU.
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 17:49
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Couldn't Barrow do it, I know they build ships that sink, but would they have the infrastructure and also more importantly the deep water channel to accept it.

Also as they built sections at Portsmouth wouldn't they be better equipped to complete them, plus they just dredged the channel for it.


And Courtney, do be serious, you do not think the MOD would use something as modern and up to date as Windows 10, surely XP or one of the free systems would be a cheaper option.
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 17:56
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Originally Posted by Courtney Mil
Coff,

Big bolt cutters, black balaclavas, fake IDs, heaters and someone that knows how to drive a ship that isn't really finished yet. Anyone know if the engines are fitted yet? That might affect the getaway plan.
Cmon guys, half a dozen Liverpudlian scallies would have it away in no time.
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 18:03
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But how would they steer it, the first one onto the bridge would have the wheel away..
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 18:05
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Windows 10 or XP?

Like the catapults: 'fitted for but not with'. Yeah right.


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