RRP (Flying) Review
Join Date: Feb 2003
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So when are we going to hear about this?
So here we are, 10 months on and still no closer, it would appear, to being briefed on what RRP(Fg) will look like for those aircrew still sticking around to see the outcome. Are they waiting for a 'bad news' day to hide it?
Because this has been such an extensive review, am I being naive in expecting much from it?
On a similar note, given the push/pull factors and the number of pilots finding gainful employment elsewhere, what is the 'figure' now at? You know, the figure that any FRI will have to be at to make a difference now?
Because this has been such an extensive review, am I being naive in expecting much from it?
On a similar note, given the push/pull factors and the number of pilots finding gainful employment elsewhere, what is the 'figure' now at? You know, the figure that any FRI will have to be at to make a difference now?
Join Date: Apr 2007
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I think it would all depend on what fleet you are on and how many hours you have.
For a Multies pilot with at least 1500 hrs on type and having had a look at various airlines and the packages they are offering, I would suggest a figure of at least £60 000 after tax for 5 years extra service.
This would bring the pay to a similar level and go in some way of making up for the pay cut over the last 5 years, AFPS 15, NEM, and the BS of day to day service life. At the end of the day, it will cost the MoD more than £60 000 to train a baby pilot to the same level.
I suspect though that there is no money in the pot for an FRI. Also the MoD prefers the stick over the carrot method of retention, and I would not be surprised to see an increase in the RoS on initial conversion to type. Or dare say it, an increase for PVR timelines.
I think it would all depend on what fleet you are on and how many hours you have.
For a Multies pilot with at least 1500 hrs on type and having had a look at various airlines and the packages they are offering, I would suggest a figure of at least £60 000 after tax for 5 years extra service.
This would bring the pay to a similar level and go in some way of making up for the pay cut over the last 5 years, AFPS 15, NEM, and the BS of day to day service life. At the end of the day, it will cost the MoD more than £60 000 to train a baby pilot to the same level.
I suspect though that there is no money in the pot for an FRI. Also the MoD prefers the stick over the carrot method of retention, and I would not be surprised to see an increase in the RoS on initial conversion to type. Or dare say it, an increase for PVR timelines.
The current 'FRI' is a sign on bounty for PAS. There are those that will scoff, but PAS is a good deal for those that want it. 20k pre-tax is not a fortune, but it's not the end of the world either. Especially when you add on the benefits of PAS.
Standing by for the usual whingers to say how they would need at least £1,000,000 to even consider staying in.
I apologise, once again, for being positive and not complaining about life in a blue suit at every opportunity. I realise this is in contravention of Pprune SOPs.
BV
Standing by for the usual whingers to say how they would need at least £1,000,000 to even consider staying in.
I apologise, once again, for being positive and not complaining about life in a blue suit at every opportunity. I realise this is in contravention of Pprune SOPs.
BV
Join Date: Feb 2005
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BV, whilst I applaud your positivity, there is a problem here. The PA offers are designed to retain expensive and hard-to-retain experienced personnel. The fact that the (in my personal view) derisory offer of £20k taxable for a 5 year RoS has almost entirely been unsuccessful speaks volumes as to its achievement of the aims of retention. It is not for me to comment on people's individual motivations but if a £2400 per year bonus for 5 more years is not tempting enough people to stay then it can be said to have failed.
This is only to be compounded by the rumoured "restructuring" of ab initio flying pay (sorry RRP) in that significant numbers of first tourists will probably be joining the already significant numbers of experienced operators at the queue for the door. I honestly believe that aircrew manning is heading for an unprecedented crisis in the next few years, and tossing loose change in the hat is not going to change anything.
This is only to be compounded by the rumoured "restructuring" of ab initio flying pay (sorry RRP) in that significant numbers of first tourists will probably be joining the already significant numbers of experienced operators at the queue for the door. I honestly believe that aircrew manning is heading for an unprecedented crisis in the next few years, and tossing loose change in the hat is not going to change anything.
Over 10 years ago, well before the pay stagnation and allowances rape, a targeted FRI could hit the dizzy heights of £100k. Back then we were told it was cheap compared to training a replacement. As to why anyone would think a £20k FRI in the present day would achieve anything is beyond me.
Bob,
Unless this becomes a permanent part of PAS then I completely fail to see the point in it. Such a low amount (in FRI terms) is totally pointless as the only people who have taken it are those that were staying anyway. Its done nothing to retain people at all and could almost certainly have been better spent elsewhere. Fundamentally I disagree with FRI's but see that in the current situation they are probably the least 'bad' option. That being said, they need to be significantly bigger to actually have an effect (just see what is happening in the US with the quarter mil FRI's!).
Flying pay needs to go and a separate pay scale for aircrew introduced.
I do agree with you though, there are still quite a few who enjoy the job. I was one of them until I had to choose my family over the RAF. If the RAF channeled more money into family related areas such as the quarters and childcare then my wife wouldn't hate the service and I would still be in.
Unless this becomes a permanent part of PAS then I completely fail to see the point in it. Such a low amount (in FRI terms) is totally pointless as the only people who have taken it are those that were staying anyway. Its done nothing to retain people at all and could almost certainly have been better spent elsewhere. Fundamentally I disagree with FRI's but see that in the current situation they are probably the least 'bad' option. That being said, they need to be significantly bigger to actually have an effect (just see what is happening in the US with the quarter mil FRI's!).
Flying pay needs to go and a separate pay scale for aircrew introduced.
I do agree with you though, there are still quite a few who enjoy the job. I was one of them until I had to choose my family over the RAF. If the RAF channeled more money into family related areas such as the quarters and childcare then my wife wouldn't hate the service and I would still be in.
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Accepting that they are not going to put any money into family stuff (quite the opposite if you're exposed to CAAS rebranding and the reformulated Families Accommodation "offer"), then the other option is to pay individuals enough so that they don't care. Quarters are cr@p, commuting is cr@p, so how about pay the expensive staff enough that they could actually afford to buy their own house within 40miles of where these people have decided to consolidate our assets? (You can guess which Oxon airfield I am referring to..)
Quarters are cr@p, commuting is cr@p, so how about pay the expensive staff enough that they could actually afford to buy their own house within 40miles of where these people have decided to consolidate our assets? (You can guess which Oxon airfield I am referring to..)
How the hell will any JO aircrew graduating from advanced flying training to an ME OCU be able to afford to live near Brize, with such absurd house prices? And of course it's even worse for others...
Madness...
Join Date: Sep 2012
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Consider this; the 20K taxable payment for PAS is the delegated limit which Manning can offer without recourse to the tri-Service board. That's why it is so relatively low. Higher amounts would require buy in from all three Services and (guess what) it would fail because a lot of branches are suffering.
How, then, do you decide which is important? You must offer clear statistics and I'm not convinced the sorts of haemorrhaging statistics exist for the RAF pilot branch....yet. The issue is, once Manning is in full crisis mode for pilot retention, it'll be too late to solve the problem with a high-end FRI because it takes about 12 years to replace a pilot with 10 years experience (training added).
I've always thought FRIs somewhat devisive and imprecise. Instead, there should be an enhanced RRP scale to truly reflect the situation - like LOA, this can be scaled up or down with the times, accepting it won't drop below a set minimum to allow financial planning.
How, then, do you decide which is important? You must offer clear statistics and I'm not convinced the sorts of haemorrhaging statistics exist for the RAF pilot branch....yet. The issue is, once Manning is in full crisis mode for pilot retention, it'll be too late to solve the problem with a high-end FRI because it takes about 12 years to replace a pilot with 10 years experience (training added).
I've always thought FRIs somewhat devisive and imprecise. Instead, there should be an enhanced RRP scale to truly reflect the situation - like LOA, this can be scaled up or down with the times, accepting it won't drop below a set minimum to allow financial planning.
I feel that the apparent haemorrhaging of pilots is relative to the stage of your career you are at. I passed my IPP last year. It stands to reason that lots of my peer group reached the crossroads point for their career in the same period. It can certainly feel like 'everyone's leaving' when this is the case.
As I have said on other threads, I am a FJ guy through and through and something of an optimist to boot. I cannot pretend I understand manning issues on other fleets but in my area of expertise I am only really witnessing slightly higher than normal outflow. The growth of the RAF's aircraft fleets is a great thing but it is, of course, contributing to the manning problem.
I agree with MSOCs. I don't think we have a crisis yet. However, say what you like. Money is the answer. The RAF will be far more able to stem the flow and increase long term retention if they can at least pretend to counter the money on offer elsewhere.
It's not just about airlines. In fact, in the FJ world, that's barely even on the radar. People have broadened their horizons nowadays and overseas jobs are far more of a pull from where I'm sitting.
BV
As I have said on other threads, I am a FJ guy through and through and something of an optimist to boot. I cannot pretend I understand manning issues on other fleets but in my area of expertise I am only really witnessing slightly higher than normal outflow. The growth of the RAF's aircraft fleets is a great thing but it is, of course, contributing to the manning problem.
I agree with MSOCs. I don't think we have a crisis yet. However, say what you like. Money is the answer. The RAF will be far more able to stem the flow and increase long term retention if they can at least pretend to counter the money on offer elsewhere.
It's not just about airlines. In fact, in the FJ world, that's barely even on the radar. People have broadened their horizons nowadays and overseas jobs are far more of a pull from where I'm sitting.
BV
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Personally, I think FRIs are never aimed at the people that need them. If people are about to leave, money won't keep them in, why not offer them a decent qualification to aim for when they leave instead. Why not offer them an ATPL (H or A) at their pension point? Many people I've spoken with in he crewrooms all agree that this would keep them in more than a monetary tie in. It would also be more beneficial for a second career.
Apparently AFPRB considered it but decided not to go with it as they thought it was pointless...
Apparently AFPRB considered it but decided not to go with it as they thought it was pointless...
Join Date: Feb 2005
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That's correct, engineers are currently a closer wolf at the door, but pilots are not far behind. It's impossible to give hard statistics without compromising protected information, but let's just say both engineer manning and pilot manning, particularly experienced instructors, is having operational effect. The people who are staying are being pushed further than they ever have before and will eventually burn out or give up. The equipment programme in the RAF front line is indeed expanding greatly, but the personnel element of that growth has been completely overlooked in resourcing. Extra typhoon squadron? Great, where's the pilots? Where's the engineers? Extra life extension for C130J, ditto. I'm sure there are parallels in rotary land too, but they are probably being masked by the offloading of Merlin and SAR. The cynic in me could suggest that adding these un-resourced squadrons does seem to allow SO1 and SO2 appointments to continue to grow, whilst not doing anything to increase overall capability, in fact I could say its reducing it. I don't know if you've ever tried to make an inverse pyramid stand up, but it's pretty difficult and very easy to push over. It is somewhat worrying that that is the shape our force is starting to resemble. And who will carry the can for these woeful decisions? Air Vice Marshall (Ret'd) Sir Doing-very-nicely-thank-you on his protected pension? Lord Self-Serving Narcissist, former Defence Secretary? Don't think so... It will be all too late anyhow when they find themselves with a garage full of new toys and no-one left to maintain or operate them. There'll still be plenty of people to run Equality and Inclusivity seminars and Fire Safety Briefs though, as long as it isn't on a Friday of course. Oh, and good job we made all those flying training students redundant a couple of years back...
Join Date: Sep 2012
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FJ2ME,
You're right. Engineers are the most concerning issue right now, as quite a few left for the oil and gas industry before the bubble burst. Recruiting them is a challenge, as is encouraging young men and women to study STEM subjects.
I don't share your cynicism re: very senior officers. All the ones I regularly come into contact with are actively addressing the situation and looking at both now, and the future, not just their nest eggs. Perceptions differ of course, depending where you view it from.
People forget that the desire to grow the equipment programme will demand measures to recruit and retain. That money will have to be found from somewhere and it won't be a fair allocation but the 'facts will argue for themselves', as Churchill once wrote in his famous memo to Whitehall staff.
You're right. Engineers are the most concerning issue right now, as quite a few left for the oil and gas industry before the bubble burst. Recruiting them is a challenge, as is encouraging young men and women to study STEM subjects.
I don't share your cynicism re: very senior officers. All the ones I regularly come into contact with are actively addressing the situation and looking at both now, and the future, not just their nest eggs. Perceptions differ of course, depending where you view it from.
People forget that the desire to grow the equipment programme will demand measures to recruit and retain. That money will have to be found from somewhere and it won't be a fair allocation but the 'facts will argue for themselves', as Churchill once wrote in his famous memo to Whitehall staff.
There is no mystery here. Most of the good operators with skill and experience have gone to drive around in the civvi world for +money and no f'ing around. The RAF has failed to develop the career path and increasing pay structure that PA spine and AFPS 05 started to offer.
I suspect that the "event horizon" occured about 4 years ago and the complete implosion is now occuring. 
OAP
I suspect that the "event horizon" occured about 4 years ago and the complete implosion is now occuring. OAP
My point being that TG1 don't receive RRP, there isn't an offer of an FRI or other financial benefit such as PAS. The experience is walking out the door into well paid jobs across numerous fields, not just aviation. It doesn't matter how many pilots there are if they don't have the suitably maintained hardware in which to do their jobs.
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Ok MSOCS, what exactly are they 'actively' doing about it? Seeking to wrestle our housing contract out of the death grip of a money-grabbing negligent shower? Preventing the tempo of a base being set by meaningless compulsory training courses? Looking at real cost of living in UK and seeking to equate what both pilots and engineers do in the RAF which their actual real (salary) value to the organisation? Attempting to stop bean counters and REMFS putting conditions on operations and exercises based on piffling sums of T&S? And most importantly, what are they actually doing, in any useful and practical way to attempt to stop people WANTING to leave and indeed increasing both the quantity and quality of people who want to join? This problem won't be solved by increasing RoS and/or PVR times, and there is no point thinking up twisted ways of MAKING people stay who would actually like to leave. Whilst this completely beyond money now for most people, yet salary is a major lever that most VSOs or analysts are "told" that they are not to consider. If you can't affect salary, housing, T&S conditions, or family stability, then nothing that is done will have any real effect on overall retention. The people who are leaving have some very important information about the organisation and it's failings and it's high time we started listening to those nuggets rather than criticising their motivations.