Ejection seat pins in aircraft with loos and galleys
Thread Starter
Ejection seat pins in aircraft with loos and galleys
The recent thread about the Su-34, had me wondering about aircraft in which it is possible to get in and out of an ejection seat in flight. This would presumably have applied to the front seats in V-bombers as well as the B-52, B-1 & B-2.
Presumably it is/was normal practice to put pins in the ejection seat being left before getting up? Would all the seats be made safe (in case of stumbles and grabs) or just the one being vacated?
Presumably it is/was normal practice to put pins in the ejection seat being left before getting up? Would all the seats be made safe (in case of stumbles and grabs) or just the one being vacated?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
In the case of the Vulcan, yes, though it would have been rare and I don't recall doing it.
Until Black Buck when they fitted a Porta Potty there hadn't been a bog for at least 20 years if then. I don't know if it was ever used. They may have carried a third pilot though.
The only relief was via a pee tube and woe betide the pilot that didn't check the bung before use. It used to take a long time before a new co would feel relaxed enough sitting next to someone and pee sitting down.
Until Black Buck when they fitted a Porta Potty there hadn't been a bog for at least 20 years if then. I don't know if it was ever used. They may have carried a third pilot though.
The only relief was via a pee tube and woe betide the pilot that didn't check the bung before use. It used to take a long time before a new co would feel relaxed enough sitting next to someone and pee sitting down.
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Remember going for a jolly with Tatty Ton at Akrotiri during APC in the early eighties. As we got established in the tow I was invited to leave my seat and crawl fwd to the nose where I could see the F4s peeling in and opening fire on 'us'. Pins were def in the seat while I was absent from it.
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Nav Observer in Canberra B15 left his seat after t/o and returned for landing. Spent the flight in the nose or standing beside the pilot. Sadly no galley nor loo, and certainly no hostie (although I'm sure we could have squeezed in a small slim local lass). Only the empty seat had the pins in place.
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In B-52G&H models, the procedure for upward-ejecting seats was to insert the pins and lower the armrests (they were pivoted at the back), which additionally disabled the firing mechanism and made it easier to get in and out. The RN and NAV had downward seats and some kind of pull handle between their legs: no idea how that worked. The NAVs never had time to take a leak, anyway. 
Only the seat being left would be safed.
IIRC, when not in use, the seat pins were stored in cloth pouches on the side of the seat across the aisle.
Earlier models had different seats and I don't remember them well enough to comment,
Only the seat being left would be safed.
IIRC, when not in use, the seat pins were stored in cloth pouches on the side of the seat across the aisle.
Earlier models had different seats and I don't remember them well enough to comment,
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Leaving the seat in a Victor was not possible. Ther was a large "fuel tray" hinged at the front which was in the up position when entering the flight deck. It was then brouight down before the show started. Following an early cat 5 due to electrical faults in this tray which caused all fuel pumps to fail on finals, the tray could not be moved once under way. The P tube was the only option; if you ever tried to use it when wearing an immersion suit you woul not repeat the experience. So NO - one did not leave the bang seat in a Victor. The Valiant was different. Get the AEO to put the top pin in (there was no seat handle) and it was quite possible to climb down and stretch your legs. I did it quite often as a co-pilot so as to be able to see what they were doing down the back and learn a bit.
can i ask a somewhat grim question?
what was the situation/ethos if, while say the pilot or co-pilot was out of their seat and warming a pasty/having a pee/stretching their legs, something happened to the aircraft that might result in its loss?
was the ethos to get back in the seat so that if loss became inevitable, everyone could get out, or was it to stay out of the way and allow the remaining crew to concentrate on saving the aircraft, with the unseated crew member accepting that they might have to remain in the aircraft?
sorry for the morbidity...
what was the situation/ethos if, while say the pilot or co-pilot was out of their seat and warming a pasty/having a pee/stretching their legs, something happened to the aircraft that might result in its loss?
was the ethos to get back in the seat so that if loss became inevitable, everyone could get out, or was it to stay out of the way and allow the remaining crew to concentrate on saving the aircraft, with the unseated crew member accepting that they might have to remain in the aircraft?
sorry for the morbidity...
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Pontiflex, you obviously never heard of the 20 West navex or similar:
My original post was the story going around 1 Gp. Here are some extracts from an earlier Pprune thread:
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-324763.html with the story from Marham 69 who was on the flight and Art Field who commented:
Marham 69:
My most energising 'brown adrenalin' experience of the Victor Cockpit view. Zooming along at FL390 M0.88, there was an explosion in the front cockpit (about 5 times as loud as 9mm practice on the pistol range) and the cockpit filled with dense smoke. Without any prior warning the canopy jettson lever had been activated. I swivelled around to front cockpit view expecting I know not what.
I should explain - this was on a 3 times round the UK 10hr training sortie for overseas deployment (fully re-tanked half way through). After about 5 hours Bill was a bit sore in the arse and swapped seats with the Nav Radar for a 10 min or so break. Dave M was doing his pilot thing.
Yup - you've guessed it. The Nav Radar (a very tall individual) was grappling around under the LHS seat to lower same. He pulled the wrong lever.
The Canopy DID NOT jettison. And at that height and speed I thank the Good Lord. To this day I am uncertain as to why - the reason I was given was cabin pressure <> outside air pressure. That seemed a bit odd to me ie the Captain would have to depressureise prior to ejection?
Art Field
28th Jul 2009, 19:53
Marham 69. As far as I can remember (We are going back a bit now) the canopy did not go because the cabin had not depressurized when the jettison handle was pulled. The depressurizing was initiated by the Abandon Aircraft switch on the Captains left window panel which would, when the cabin differential became zero, allow the canopy to be lifted off by the aerodynamic effect over it.
beefix
29th Jul 2009, 20:22
Art Field
Just about right, The canopy was held in place by a series of latches and was sealed by an inflatable rubber seal. You may remember the seal's gas bottle attached to the canopy. It was located just above the ejector seat and was inflated to 1800 psi. The integrity of the latches was checked by ensuring that the canopy rigging tool, located in the cabin near the left hand pilots consul, would pass through the the three rigging holes on the forward edge of the canopy, just on the pilots eye line. I was on 543 Sqn when the Marham canopy release incident happened, it certainly caused some consternation amongst the aircrew. IIRC we had to apply some extra markings to the canopy release handle. Having worked on both the Victor and Vulcan (44R Sqn Crew Chief) the cabin of the Victor was like sitting in a green house compared with the Vulcans " Black Hole of Calcutta"
However the following post by VictorPilot accords with my memory:
Now to the Victor 1 accidental firing of the canopy jettison system. It has been well described earlier, but my recollection was slightly fuller. The First Pilots ejection seat had a handle on the right hand side of the seat to raise and lower it. On the cockpit structure to the left of the seat was a "Grip" handle which had to be pulled upwards to fire the canopy jettison cartridge. The navigator, who was not strapped into the seat, wanted to raise the ejection seat and asked what to do. He was told to pull the lever up - he had his hand on the canopy jettison, and pulled it up and the cartridge fired as advertised. Fortunately for the crew, it emerged that there was not sufficient power or leverage from the piston to drive the locks open. When the latches were holding the canopy closed with cabin pressure exerting a load of several tonnes against them, there was too much friction to allow the latches to unlock.
My original post was the story going around 1 Gp. Here are some extracts from an earlier Pprune thread:
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-324763.html with the story from Marham 69 who was on the flight and Art Field who commented:
Marham 69:
My most energising 'brown adrenalin' experience of the Victor Cockpit view. Zooming along at FL390 M0.88, there was an explosion in the front cockpit (about 5 times as loud as 9mm practice on the pistol range) and the cockpit filled with dense smoke. Without any prior warning the canopy jettson lever had been activated. I swivelled around to front cockpit view expecting I know not what.
I should explain - this was on a 3 times round the UK 10hr training sortie for overseas deployment (fully re-tanked half way through). After about 5 hours Bill was a bit sore in the arse and swapped seats with the Nav Radar for a 10 min or so break. Dave M was doing his pilot thing.
Yup - you've guessed it. The Nav Radar (a very tall individual) was grappling around under the LHS seat to lower same. He pulled the wrong lever.
The Canopy DID NOT jettison. And at that height and speed I thank the Good Lord. To this day I am uncertain as to why - the reason I was given was cabin pressure <> outside air pressure. That seemed a bit odd to me ie the Captain would have to depressureise prior to ejection?
Art Field
28th Jul 2009, 19:53
Marham 69. As far as I can remember (We are going back a bit now) the canopy did not go because the cabin had not depressurized when the jettison handle was pulled. The depressurizing was initiated by the Abandon Aircraft switch on the Captains left window panel which would, when the cabin differential became zero, allow the canopy to be lifted off by the aerodynamic effect over it.
beefix
29th Jul 2009, 20:22
Art Field
Just about right, The canopy was held in place by a series of latches and was sealed by an inflatable rubber seal. You may remember the seal's gas bottle attached to the canopy. It was located just above the ejector seat and was inflated to 1800 psi. The integrity of the latches was checked by ensuring that the canopy rigging tool, located in the cabin near the left hand pilots consul, would pass through the the three rigging holes on the forward edge of the canopy, just on the pilots eye line. I was on 543 Sqn when the Marham canopy release incident happened, it certainly caused some consternation amongst the aircrew. IIRC we had to apply some extra markings to the canopy release handle. Having worked on both the Victor and Vulcan (44R Sqn Crew Chief) the cabin of the Victor was like sitting in a green house compared with the Vulcans " Black Hole of Calcutta"
However the following post by VictorPilot accords with my memory:
Now to the Victor 1 accidental firing of the canopy jettison system. It has been well described earlier, but my recollection was slightly fuller. The First Pilots ejection seat had a handle on the right hand side of the seat to raise and lower it. On the cockpit structure to the left of the seat was a "Grip" handle which had to be pulled upwards to fire the canopy jettison cartridge. The navigator, who was not strapped into the seat, wanted to raise the ejection seat and asked what to do. He was told to pull the lever up - he had his hand on the canopy jettison, and pulled it up and the cartridge fired as advertised. Fortunately for the crew, it emerged that there was not sufficient power or leverage from the piston to drive the locks open. When the latches were holding the canopy closed with cabin pressure exerting a load of several tonnes against them, there was too much friction to allow the latches to unlock.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 6th Jan 2016 at 13:15.
PersonFromPorlock
You may be able to help with something that I've always wondered about with the B-52. 
In Dr Strangelove, Major Kong always seems to be wearing a parachute when moving around the aircraft-were parachutes not actually part of the seat assembly in those days as is common now?
TIA
TO
In Dr Strangelove, Major Kong always seems to be wearing a parachute when moving around the aircraft-were parachutes not actually part of the seat assembly in those days as is common now?
TIA
TO
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Coke, hypothetical.
Regarding a pilot, it could only occur in high level cruise; shall we say a post-curry moment. All the crew would be on 100% oxygen. An abandonment event might have been an electrical failure as happened to a Mk 1 Vulcan near Chicago. As the event was abt height I guess the crew would assist the pilot back to his seat.
In the event of an emergency at low level the crew member not in his seat would be one of the rear crew or a checker. Should the unseated crewman not be wearing his bone dome and parachute then probably tough. My job was to open the door and I would not have delayed. Once the door was open my job was to gety out of the way and that meant jumping.
Regarding a pilot, it could only occur in high level cruise; shall we say a post-curry moment. All the crew would be on 100% oxygen. An abandonment event might have been an electrical failure as happened to a Mk 1 Vulcan near Chicago. As the event was abt height I guess the crew would assist the pilot back to his seat.
In the event of an emergency at low level the crew member not in his seat would be one of the rear crew or a checker. Should the unseated crewman not be wearing his bone dome and parachute then probably tough. My job was to open the door and I would not have delayed. Once the door was open my job was to gety out of the way and that meant jumping.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Treble one, if you look at contemporary films bang seat parachutes came with the man. The seat mounted (parachutes)*seats came with MB.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 6th Jan 2016 at 12:24. Reason: *for pick knitters
Taking a person-formerly-known-as-a-WRAF on an MRR borex once, the question arose as to how to provide a relief device, should she need to 'go'.
This was solved by acquisition of one of those huge oil replenishment funnels bodge taped to a standard Vulcan pee tube, entitled the 'WRAF adaptor', which was placed in the visual bomb aimer's position. Using it would have been little fun for her, as it was immersion suit time of the year...
One sight of the thing was enough to persuade her to 'go' immediately before flight and not to drink anything during the flight.
All went well, we spotted the odd boat and she was happy enough.
This was solved by acquisition of one of those huge oil replenishment funnels bodge taped to a standard Vulcan pee tube, entitled the 'WRAF adaptor', which was placed in the visual bomb aimer's position. Using it would have been little fun for her, as it was immersion suit time of the year...
One sight of the thing was enough to persuade her to 'go' immediately before flight and not to drink anything during the flight.
All went well, we spotted the odd boat and she was happy enough.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
, entitled the 'WRAF adaptor', which was placed in the visual bomb aimer's position. Using it would have been little fun for her, as it was immersion suit time of the year...
One sight of the thing was enough to persuade her to 'go' immediately before flight and not to drink anything during the flight.
One sight of the thing was enough to persuade her to 'go' immediately before flight and not to drink anything during the flight.
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WRAF adaptor
one of those huge oil replenishment funnels bodge taped to a standard Vulcan pee tube, entitled the 'WRAF adaptor'
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PersonFromPorlock
You may be able to help with something that I've always wondered about with the B-52.
You may be able to help with something that I've always wondered about with the B-52.
The parachute was fixed in the seat by a connection to the inertia reel at the top back and to the survival kit in the seat base, on top of which was a seat cushion of stern character. Getting out of the seat involved pins in - armrests dropped - parachute chest strap and leg straps released, seat belt released - helmet and mask off and propped on top of the headrest - oxygen off... and away we go!
Last edited by PersonFromPorlock; 7th Jan 2016 at 22:06.