Air Experience Flights; why two-seaters?
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Good answers, thanks. Just a couple of points: "tis the lure, catch them young..." seems rather to assume that the alternative is a one-on one session at the controls which I agree would be ideal. In reality though, often the alternative is no flight at all.
"Flights in the back guarantee a technicolour yawn..." which would seem to have ruled out Chipmunk -and many of its predecessors
"Flights in the back guarantee a technicolour yawn..." which would seem to have ruled out Chipmunk -and many of its predecessors
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Originally Posted by ShotOne
a navex, perhaps changing seats, rather than the usual brief local hop. OK, only one has a set of controls in front of him but does that really matter? There's a host of suitable types; a Robin DR 400, for instance
Originally Posted by Commandant Air Cadets
Dear Mister and Mrs Jones
We regret to inform you of the sad loss of your son during an air experience flight.
I would like to confirm to you that he was having a great time and was as happy as a lark right up to the point where he and Cadet Smith departed through the canopy - possibly due to a tad of unexpected turbulence, possibly due to an ill-advised accidental kick on the control column - whilst unstrapped and changing seats with each other.
Rest assured that that you will among the first to know once we have located them. I am sure you will also be glad to hear that the doctors think they will get (the somewhat ironically-named) Cadet Brown out of his locked foetal position over the next few months.
Yours Sincerely
We regret to inform you of the sad loss of your son during an air experience flight.
I would like to confirm to you that he was having a great time and was as happy as a lark right up to the point where he and Cadet Smith departed through the canopy - possibly due to a tad of unexpected turbulence, possibly due to an ill-advised accidental kick on the control column - whilst unstrapped and changing seats with each other.
Rest assured that that you will among the first to know once we have located them. I am sure you will also be glad to hear that the doctors think they will get (the somewhat ironically-named) Cadet Brown out of his locked foetal position over the next few months.
Yours Sincerely
Air Commodore Peasemold Gruntsfuttock
RAF Whowouldhavethoughtiteh
RAF Whowouldhavethoughtiteh
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Flying at Summer Camp?
Do cadets still get the chance to fly at summer camps? During my time in the cadets (1960s) I had the good fortune to get trips in a Hercules, Hastings, Shackleton and Wessex during "camps" at various RAF stations. Much to my annoyance I missed out on a flight in a two seat Hunter when our family holiday in Cornwall prevented me going with my Squadron (94 Feltham Squadron ATC) for a weeks camp at RAF Chivenor. Back in those days we had things organised by the squadron most weekends such as full bore rife practice at RAF Uxbridge and gliding at RAF Halton and many other locations. Then the ATC was a real showcase for the RAF and many from my squadron went on to have long and fulfilling careers within its ranks. I'm sure as an organisation it still does it's best but regrettably probably nothing like as much I had the good fortune to enjoy.
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During the 1950s we were spoilt for choice. 24F squadron ATC organised at least 2 weekend trips a month for those who cared to go aloft. My first trip was in a Lancaster, followed the same day by an Oxford. I couldn't go often enough and was staggered when other cadets declined trips by saying "Oh, not another bloody Shackleton, we flew in them last time"! They usually attended summer camp though as the aim was to get more types in the little book we were issued with. (Wish I had kept mine).
16327 in theory cadets should get flown at Annual Camps. Just depends on where the camps are. With fewer and fewer airfields/aircraft it is getting a challenge to get them airborne. Having just seen the SAR fleet consigned to the history books another chance has gone.
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You're absolutely right, wee jem; elf n safety must always take precedence. How could anyone in their right mind consider allowing children to fly in single piston aircraft with however many seats?
I suppose you could call sitting in the back of an airliner an air experience flight but the air experience flight I did at Manston in a Chippy in the 70's was really a first flying Lesson. Taught to fly straight and level and coordinated turns hands on, then observed some aerobatics finishing with a practice forced landing from 2000 feet. Convinced me to pursue lots more flying!
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Do cadets still get the chance to fly at summer camps? During my time in the cadets (1960s) I had the good fortune to get trips in a Hercules, Hastings, Shackleton and Wessex during "camps" at various RAF stations. Much to my annoyance I missed out on a flight in a two seat Hunter when our family holiday in Cornwall prevented me going with my Squadron (94 Feltham Squadron ATC) for a weeks camp at RAF Chivenor. Back in those days we had things organised by the squadron most weekends such as full bore rife practice at RAF Uxbridge and gliding at RAF Halton and many other locations. Then the ATC was a real showcase for the RAF and many from my squadron went on to have long and fulfilling careers within its ranks. I'm sure as an organisation it still does it's best but regrettably probably nothing like as much I had the good fortune to enjoy.
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Ah, the good old days. Started with 1365 Aylesbury Squadron. Second flight ever was in a Beverley. Subsequently many Ansons, Chipmunks at White Waltham. Notable summer camp at Kinloss. Didn't get a Shackleton, but our Anson was flying in formation with another. We were going to Wick to pick up an airman, and the pilot alongside decided it would be fun to have our wings overlapping !!!. I kid you not, this actually happened. Scared the s..t out of us!. Got a Vampire T.11 at Shawbury on summer camp, and was eventually Staff Cadet on 613GS at RAF Halton. Great days!!.
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I quite often flew ATC cadets on the C130, you could fit in quite a few & even though there weren't many windows they would rotate through the flight deck for a good look at the 'action' & you could open the ramp or para doors for an enhanced view although that could limit your activities somewhat. They had a tendency to throw up especially down the back on a warm summer's day but I always thought it was a formative experience whatever. I'd enjoyed similar trips in my youth (without the throwing up).
I did one memorable PD to St Mawgan with a bunch of cadets, after we'd completed the training we flew around the Cornish coast with the doors open & then closed up for the transit home. As we settled into the short cruise their officer said that one of his cadets was doing her PPL & could she have a go? The co obligingly gave up his seat & the young lady after a little instruction hand flew the ac all the way back even descending & joining the hold where the co got back in to land us. I like to think that given the chance she'd have done an equally fine job of landing it too.
She demonstrated real potential & I hope she was inspired to try for a career in aviation. Sadly the paper chase to fly anybody these days seems to be getting longer.
I did one memorable PD to St Mawgan with a bunch of cadets, after we'd completed the training we flew around the Cornish coast with the doors open & then closed up for the transit home. As we settled into the short cruise their officer said that one of his cadets was doing her PPL & could she have a go? The co obligingly gave up his seat & the young lady after a little instruction hand flew the ac all the way back even descending & joining the hold where the co got back in to land us. I like to think that given the chance she'd have done an equally fine job of landing it too.
She demonstrated real potential & I hope she was inspired to try for a career in aviation. Sadly the paper chase to fly anybody these days seems to be getting longer.
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Off we go, into the Wide Blue Yonder.....
I was never a Cadet or in a position to fly Cadets, but on a tour as the Adj of an Auxiliary Fighter Control Unit, I was often able to borrow the Squadron Harvard or the Station Tiger Moth at weekends. I was able to keep my hand in on the Squadron Vampires (indeed, you were obliged to do so [if there was opportunity] on your ground tours in the '50s), but they had only single-seat Mks. III and V.
An extract from a Post of mine (on another Thread 18 months ago):
Danny42C.
An extract from a Post of mine (on another Thread 18 months ago):
...Your #5505 reminds me that I used to give "Air Experience" flights to our troops from time to time on Sundays at Thornaby (always picking a sunny afternoon for the Station TM !), and sometimes in the Harvard.
It was strange to find that, even as late as the early'50s, that apart from the tiny minority who had wartime aircrew experience, and some who'd a bit of glider or light airctaft time, no more was generally known about the art of piloting than fifty years before. Many thought of it as a sort of "high wire" balancing act, in which only the consummate skill of the operator stood between safety and and an uncontrollable plunge to earth.
So when I offered the back-seat passenger the chance to "have a go", the response was often naked terror. Not for all the tea in China would they touch the stick, and begged me not to let go. I'd lift my hands in the air to show that the aircraft could happily look after itself - they were horrified. "Take it", I'd say, "there's no trouble that you can get into that I can't get out of in ten seconds" (I was sticking my neck out a bit there). It was no good.
At the other end of the spectrum, some went at it with gusto, and I had to intervene before they had the wings off the poor old Tiger.... It takes all sorts...
It was strange to find that, even as late as the early'50s, that apart from the tiny minority who had wartime aircrew experience, and some who'd a bit of glider or light airctaft time, no more was generally known about the art of piloting than fifty years before. Many thought of it as a sort of "high wire" balancing act, in which only the consummate skill of the operator stood between safety and and an uncontrollable plunge to earth.
So when I offered the back-seat passenger the chance to "have a go", the response was often naked terror. Not for all the tea in China would they touch the stick, and begged me not to let go. I'd lift my hands in the air to show that the aircraft could happily look after itself - they were horrified. "Take it", I'd say, "there's no trouble that you can get into that I can't get out of in ten seconds" (I was sticking my neck out a bit there). It was no good.
At the other end of the spectrum, some went at it with gusto, and I had to intervene before they had the wings off the poor old Tiger.... It takes all sorts...
Last edited by Danny42C; 4th Jan 2016 at 09:05. Reason: Typo.
No, the Bulldog could not be configured to carry anyone other than the 2 pilots.
I also remember seeing the attachments in place on the floor behind and asked the C.O. what they were for.
It might well have been designed that way, as your cut and paste from Wikipedia suggests, but use of a third seat certainly wasn't ever considered in RAF use. Indeed, it would have been quite impossible to have abandon the aircraft with a parachute for anyone sitting in the rear area - and spinning characteristics would have been very...interesting with such an aft centre of mass.
In any case, before the avionic upgrade in the early 1990s, most of the area behind the seats was taken up by the ancient UHF radio inherited from Chipmunks.
However, the lashing points were useful when there was any need to carry baggage in the back.
In any case, before the avionic upgrade in the early 1990s, most of the area behind the seats was taken up by the ancient UHF radio inherited from Chipmunks.
However, the lashing points were useful when there was any need to carry baggage in the back.
Aside of the abandonment predicament, I was assured it was feasible to carry a third person. However, all I ever saw it used for, was as you said for baggage, on a nice little jaunt to Aberporth.
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I'm surprised to be the first to comment on air experience flying on HM Royal Kipper Fleet.
Literally flew hundreds of them - most puked, one or two so violently sorties were curtailed.
Must have ended dozens of prospective aviators dreams right there.
Globally known story of C...S K.........T operating sonics during stage 2 (Mk1 days folks) in just his shreddies and boots after being royally vommed over by a cadet.
Hey, we'll be able to do that again soon!! P8 style!!
Literally flew hundreds of them - most puked, one or two so violently sorties were curtailed.
Must have ended dozens of prospective aviators dreams right there.
Globally known story of C...S K.........T operating sonics during stage 2 (Mk1 days folks) in just his shreddies and boots after being royally vommed over by a cadet.
Hey, we'll be able to do that again soon!! P8 style!!
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It might well have been designed that way, as your cut and paste from Wikipedia suggests, but use of a third seat certainly wasn't ever considered in RAF use. Indeed, it would have been quite impossible to have abandon the aircraft with a parachute for anyone sitting in the rear area - and spinning characteristics would have been very...interesting with such an aft centre of mass.
In any case, before the avionic upgrade in the early 1990s, most of the area behind the seats was taken up by the ancient UHF radio inherited from Chipmunks.
However, the lashing points were useful when there was any need to carry baggage in the back.
In any case, before the avionic upgrade in the early 1990s, most of the area behind the seats was taken up by the ancient UHF radio inherited from Chipmunks.
However, the lashing points were useful when there was any need to carry baggage in the back.
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R20 ...
BEagle is correct in saying that there was never a 3rd rear seat option for the RAF Bulldog. It was the Swedish variant that had the 3rd rear seat ... along with a few airframes equipped to fire rockets
More here ...
FPL 61C Bulldog - page 1
PS. Having seen a certain John Pr***e lash his kit down in the back of a ULAS Bulldog in the mid 70's ... It's clear the anchor points were of great utility
If my memory is correct, that early UHF lash-up BEagle mentions ... was exactly that ... the anti vibration mounts and restraining strap looked very much like an after thought mod
Coff.
BEagle is correct in saying that there was never a 3rd rear seat option for the RAF Bulldog. It was the Swedish variant that had the 3rd rear seat ... along with a few airframes equipped to fire rockets
More here ...
FPL 61C Bulldog - page 1
PS. Having seen a certain John Pr***e lash his kit down in the back of a ULAS Bulldog in the mid 70's ... It's clear the anchor points were of great utility
If my memory is correct, that early UHF lash-up BEagle mentions ... was exactly that ... the anti vibration mounts and restraining strap looked very much like an after thought mod
Coff.
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The Old Fat One (your #37 and my #33),
I'm not a QFI, but have always believed that aerobatics with a first-time passenger was sheer cruelty, and I would never do it (unless specifically urged to do so - in which case it was "on their own heads" - or in their laps as the case may be !)
D.
...Literally flew hundreds of them - most puked, one or two so violently sorties were curtailed...
D.