Blackjack bombers in the Med
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Blackjack bombers in the Med
It looks like the Russians have sent some Blackjacks to the Med the long way round:
http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/20...terranean-sea/
Russian bombers fly around Europe to strike Syria in 8,000 mile show of strength - Telegraph
Approximating their route on Google Earth suggests that they would have flown 6000ish miles just getting to Syria, which is a pretty long way. They apparently returned via Iran and the Caspian Sea, so the minimum distance flown is 7400ish miles.
Getting close to Blackbuck distances...
http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/20...terranean-sea/
Russian bombers fly around Europe to strike Syria in 8,000 mile show of strength - Telegraph
Approximating their route on Google Earth suggests that they would have flown 6000ish miles just getting to Syria, which is a pretty long way. They apparently returned via Iran and the Caspian Sea, so the minimum distance flown is 7400ish miles.
Getting close to Blackbuck distances...
It looks like the Russians have sent some Blackjacks to the Med the long way round:
http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/20...terranean-sea/
Russian bombers fly around Europe to strike Syria in 8,000 mile show of strength - Telegraph
Approximating their route on Google Earth suggests that they would have flown 6000ish miles just getting to Syria, which is a pretty long way. They apparently returned via Iran and the Caspian Sea, so the minimum distance flown is 7400ish miles.
Getting close to Blackbuck distances...
http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/20...terranean-sea/
Russian bombers fly around Europe to strike Syria in 8,000 mile show of strength - Telegraph
Approximating their route on Google Earth suggests that they would have flown 6000ish miles just getting to Syria, which is a pretty long way. They apparently returned via Iran and the Caspian Sea, so the minimum distance flown is 7400ish miles.
Getting close to Blackbuck distances...
Defence sources said the Russian bombers are believed to have taken the roundabout route rather than a more direct flight across the Caspian and Iran to demonstrate to Nato their long range bombing ability.
Anyway, well done to the Russian crews for their work in eradicating the worthless scum infesting Syria and Iraq
!
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Yes but with less style and no credible air threat over the target(s)
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I bet they had a better DH ratio than 1 in 21 as well.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
BB, come on, that was 33 years ago with a bomber built 55 years ago. The Boneski is only 10 years old.
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Fair call PN. The Black Buck mission achieved exactly what it set out to do, and was expected to do, with antiquated weapons in an aircraft approaching the end of its long service life.
I wonder how we would go about trying to repeat that mission some 33.5 years on?
I wonder how we would go about trying to repeat that mission some 33.5 years on?
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Looking at the video they released of bombs tumbling out WW2 style, it didn't look like they were too fussed about exactly where they landed
I wonder what he has planned for phase 2?
So long as the weapons remain conventional in nature, what does it matter? There was an old saying about bear baiting that seems apt: some days you eat the bear, and some days the bear eats you.
Bon apetit, brothers in arms from Russia. (If you need bbq sauce, I can have some Fed Ex'd from Texas tomorrow!
)
So long as the weapons remain conventional in nature, what does it matter? There was an old saying about bear baiting that seems apt: some days you eat the bear, and some days the bear eats you.
Bon apetit, brothers in arms from Russia. (If you need bbq sauce, I can have some Fed Ex'd from Texas tomorrow!
)
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Really?
A lot more damage to what - and at what risk?
It's all very well to move a bit of dirt around with dumb bombs that would otherwise
have to be disposed of - in an area with negligible SAM threat.
Using 'classic bombing', Syria is being currently used as a dumping-ground for munitions that are at their use-by date.
.
A lot more damage to what - and at what risk?
It's all very well to move a bit of dirt around with dumb bombs that would otherwise
have to be disposed of - in an area with negligible SAM threat.
Using 'classic bombing', Syria is being currently used as a dumping-ground for munitions that are at their use-by date.
.
Last edited by Stanwell; 22nd Nov 2015 at 09:42.
and what did BB cost in terms of its use of assets and the risk to those assets and their crews?
i'm not one who dismisses BB's results, because as political - and political impacting on the military - results they were very considerable, but BB did not close the airport, and the resources needed to close the airport through the medium of BB were not just phenomenal, but not available. had the Vulcans/Victors been equipped with LGB's and Martel then perhaps a very different picture would emerge, but as it stands, SSN and TLAM is both far less risky and cheaper...
there's a tangent: if instead of carrying 21x 1000lb bombs BB had been carrying say 4x 2000lb LGB's what proportion of the IFR's BB used would they not have required? enough to allow two Vulcans to get down there?
i'm not one who dismisses BB's results, because as political - and political impacting on the military - results they were very considerable, but BB did not close the airport, and the resources needed to close the airport through the medium of BB were not just phenomenal, but not available. had the Vulcans/Victors been equipped with LGB's and Martel then perhaps a very different picture would emerge, but as it stands, SSN and TLAM is both far less risky and cheaper...
there's a tangent: if instead of carrying 21x 1000lb bombs BB had been carrying say 4x 2000lb LGB's what proportion of the IFR's BB used would they not have required? enough to allow two Vulcans to get down there?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
To go the LGB route would have enabled a high level delivery (less fuel than the ML descent and climb) but would have needed VMC all the way down? And a POD. Not sure the size for 4 GBU 2000 but probably 1000lb better for fitting the carriers. It might have been possible to fit A and E tanks with 11,000lb fuel and accommodate the added length of the Paveway. It might have been necessary to hang them from the lower station ie just 3 with 4 dumb bombs above.
Alternatively fit two drum tanks 16.000lbs and hang 3x2000 and a pod on the skybolt pylons.
Cokecan (Well off topic)
I suspect the LGB option was not tried because the weapon had never been dropped from the bomb bay of a Vulcan, thus a rapid amount of trials would have to be done (Though the Vulcan boys didn't train for conventional attack, the aircraft had been cleared to do it!). Also would a PWII actually fit on the Bomb racks? I suspect the maximum amount of bombs would have been 2 or 3 and then there were the operational limitations of the targeting pod (Pave Spike) which were daylight and good weather only. Thus the attack would have had to be done in daylight and with hopefully good weather when the aircraft got down there, which in the Falklands is very unlikely. The only other options would have been a US pod like Pave Knife or Pave Tack (if the latter was operational by then). Both were quite large and draggy so their carriage may have been a problem and of course weather would have been still an issue. Night time radar attacks promised the best chance of success. Martel was trialled on both the Victor and the Vulcan from what I have heard and it was found that a number of issues caused the weapon not to be viable. Thus the supply of Shrike to the UK which resulted in three attempted anti-radar missions. One was aborted (either HDU failure on the tankers or head winds (I can't remember which) while the other two resulted in a very near miss on the Argie's best radar and the destruction of a Skyguard on the other. LGB's were available for the Harrier force well before the end of the conflict, the main issue was lack of designation. The Harrier boys were mistakenly informed that the LRMTS could be used as a designator and a couple of attempts to bomb the airfield were done from high altitude with total no success before they were told that the previous information was BS. Then when ground forces with designators did get within laser range of targets, the attacks had to be aborted when the man on the ground found that the batteries on the designator were flat!!! It was only on the last day did everything come together and the whole system worked. Shrike was supplied to the Harrier force and I think an aircraft modified to use it was flown down there, but the war ended before it could be used. I suppose somebody should have thought of putting a Pave Spike on a T-bird and got it down there (though there may have been issue's that stopped the idea in its tracks, like elevator size or some other deck operating issue), but it has got to be remembered that members of the Staff on Hermes were totally against flying replacement GR3's from Ascension to the Task Force. It's ironic that in Sharkey's book the only praise he gives to the Tanker Force was getting replacement Harriers down to the Task Force, when its delay was caused by the Naval Staff refused to support what they considered to be a highly dangerous 'Crab' Stunt (mentioned in more than one aircrew account of the war). It was only when 1 Squadron was totally on it's backside as regards serviceable airframes that forced the reinforcement plan to be put in place.
I suspect the LGB option was not tried because the weapon had never been dropped from the bomb bay of a Vulcan, thus a rapid amount of trials would have to be done (Though the Vulcan boys didn't train for conventional attack, the aircraft had been cleared to do it!). Also would a PWII actually fit on the Bomb racks? I suspect the maximum amount of bombs would have been 2 or 3 and then there were the operational limitations of the targeting pod (Pave Spike) which were daylight and good weather only. Thus the attack would have had to be done in daylight and with hopefully good weather when the aircraft got down there, which in the Falklands is very unlikely. The only other options would have been a US pod like Pave Knife or Pave Tack (if the latter was operational by then). Both were quite large and draggy so their carriage may have been a problem and of course weather would have been still an issue. Night time radar attacks promised the best chance of success. Martel was trialled on both the Victor and the Vulcan from what I have heard and it was found that a number of issues caused the weapon not to be viable. Thus the supply of Shrike to the UK which resulted in three attempted anti-radar missions. One was aborted (either HDU failure on the tankers or head winds (I can't remember which) while the other two resulted in a very near miss on the Argie's best radar and the destruction of a Skyguard on the other. LGB's were available for the Harrier force well before the end of the conflict, the main issue was lack of designation. The Harrier boys were mistakenly informed that the LRMTS could be used as a designator and a couple of attempts to bomb the airfield were done from high altitude with total no success before they were told that the previous information was BS. Then when ground forces with designators did get within laser range of targets, the attacks had to be aborted when the man on the ground found that the batteries on the designator were flat!!! It was only on the last day did everything come together and the whole system worked. Shrike was supplied to the Harrier force and I think an aircraft modified to use it was flown down there, but the war ended before it could be used. I suppose somebody should have thought of putting a Pave Spike on a T-bird and got it down there (though there may have been issue's that stopped the idea in its tracks, like elevator size or some other deck operating issue), but it has got to be remembered that members of the Staff on Hermes were totally against flying replacement GR3's from Ascension to the Task Force. It's ironic that in Sharkey's book the only praise he gives to the Tanker Force was getting replacement Harriers down to the Task Force, when its delay was caused by the Naval Staff refused to support what they considered to be a highly dangerous 'Crab' Stunt (mentioned in more than one aircrew account of the war). It was only when 1 Squadron was totally on it's backside as regards serviceable airframes that forced the reinforcement plan to be put in place.
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LGB and Vulcan
You may wish to look at photo on page 113 of Tim Laming's book "The Vulcan Story" which shows 3 x LGB prior to dropping to prove viability, or not.
Hope this is of help
Hope this is of help