Paris Attacked!
Brokenlink, which would prefer, a plastic ear tag or an electronic chip? - PN
As CC seems to be suggesting, identity cards might go a long way towards indicating who should be in the UK and who shouldn't, given that this still would not cover the sleepers or the converts completely.
Jack
As CC seems to be suggesting, identity cards might go a long way towards indicating who should be in the UK and who shouldn't, given that this still would not cover the sleepers or the converts completely.
Jack
Chinny, I do think that you are being over-optimistic and agree with you, we need a leader(s), and I do not feel that we really have any capable of dealing with the problem. Fine talk, yes, but action?? (No!).
My thoughts and prayers go out to those caught up in this dreadful act in Paris.
(Please be on your guard over here!).
Bill.
My thoughts and prayers go out to those caught up in this dreadful act in Paris.
(Please be on your guard over here!).
Bill.
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VinRouge " let Assad gas Raqqa"
Lets turn it around a bit,Why don't the French whack Assad,that would change the dynamic a bit,we have had the same b/s with more or less the same players going on for five years now,it would shake it up a little,and as long as comrade Putin has his port in the eastern Med he couldn't give a toss about Assad.
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Yes I was alluding to an ID card system but as stated I don't think it would work.
Bill, optimistic maybe but we need an element of pragmatism lacking in today's politicians. Putin is overly aggressive, Assad is a thug but we all want IS shut down so.......
Bill, optimistic maybe but we need an element of pragmatism lacking in today's politicians. Putin is overly aggressive, Assad is a thug but we all want IS shut down so.......
UJ, my response to BL was TiC as he mentioned cattle which are easier to record and have short lives. - PN
Yes, I think I got that, although the idea of ear tags might be quite appealing to some.
An ID card system may take a few years to implement, unlike in WW 2, and take 10 years or more to become effective. - PN
I don't disagree, although I'd like to believe that it could be implemented quicker than that, once the inevitable shouting had died down that is.
Jack
Yes, I think I got that, although the idea of ear tags might be quite appealing to some.
An ID card system may take a few years to implement, unlike in WW 2, and take 10 years or more to become effective. - PN
I don't disagree, although I'd like to believe that it could be implemented quicker than that, once the inevitable shouting had died down that is.
Jack
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Not quite sure how we close 2000km of borders in mainland Europe.
I believe that Hollande is just the latest leader to declare 'war' on ISIL. Having not seen hundred's of thousands of Muslim's expressing their outrage at atrocities carried out in their name on the streets of Europe, perhaps targeted internment and an allied invasion on a massive scale in Syria would be a start as a response to this war..
I believe that Hollande is just the latest leader to declare 'war' on ISIL. Having not seen hundred's of thousands of Muslim's expressing their outrage at atrocities carried out in their name on the streets of Europe, perhaps targeted internment and an allied invasion on a massive scale in Syria would be a start as a response to this war..
Right or wrong, a mass invasion won't happen and even if it did it wouldn't solve the problem - as much as lashing out would undoubtedly make us feel better and as though we were doing something.
However, western, and I say that in the sense of the first world, nations are inherently centrist as a whole and governed by Centre/Centre Left administrations. The days of Maggie and Ronnie flexing muscle and intervening on a mass scale are long gone; we do, or at least claim to do limited intervention to solve the short term problems and that's about it. But in carrying out these short term interventions we lack the strategic nouse to look beyond the headlines to the third and fourth order effects that may be 5, 10, 20 years down the line. Even if our leaders had such strategic vision, their Centrist/Centre Left leanings would never sanction such a move. Despite everything that's going on, countries, populations are weary of fighting - even if it is the right and tempting thing to do.
And even if we did have the political will to do it, do we have the military capability to do it? I'd wager not, certainly not on the scale you would need to do it. The RAF on its own is full of weary individuals, many looking to get out, and kit that is either old and falling apart or is new and bought for a very specific kind of warfare. Large scale general war just isn't on the cards at the moment - especially with a Ministry of Defence run by a dogmatic Chancellor keen to cut us back to the minimum required for a defence force. Furthermore a mass invasion still doesn't solve the problem of the threat already at home. Like a sting or a bite, the toxin of extremism is already in our nation's system; energising it through war will only lead to more damage.
This is a problem that needs to be treated with caution and intelligently; force alone will not solve this. We have to be smarter than the enemy and we have to think long term in our strategy. After all, this is a war of ideas and ideals and their strategy has been maturing since the 7th century; you don't get much more long term in your thinking than that and dropping a few bombs isn't going to solve this long term. Indeed, it will simply play into Da'esh's hands; as far as they are concerned, the final battle has been prophesied and Dabiq is the location and this is all part of getting us on to the battlefield. If force needs to be applied so be it, but apply it meaningfully and as part of a considered strategy.
However, western, and I say that in the sense of the first world, nations are inherently centrist as a whole and governed by Centre/Centre Left administrations. The days of Maggie and Ronnie flexing muscle and intervening on a mass scale are long gone; we do, or at least claim to do limited intervention to solve the short term problems and that's about it. But in carrying out these short term interventions we lack the strategic nouse to look beyond the headlines to the third and fourth order effects that may be 5, 10, 20 years down the line. Even if our leaders had such strategic vision, their Centrist/Centre Left leanings would never sanction such a move. Despite everything that's going on, countries, populations are weary of fighting - even if it is the right and tempting thing to do.
And even if we did have the political will to do it, do we have the military capability to do it? I'd wager not, certainly not on the scale you would need to do it. The RAF on its own is full of weary individuals, many looking to get out, and kit that is either old and falling apart or is new and bought for a very specific kind of warfare. Large scale general war just isn't on the cards at the moment - especially with a Ministry of Defence run by a dogmatic Chancellor keen to cut us back to the minimum required for a defence force. Furthermore a mass invasion still doesn't solve the problem of the threat already at home. Like a sting or a bite, the toxin of extremism is already in our nation's system; energising it through war will only lead to more damage.
This is a problem that needs to be treated with caution and intelligently; force alone will not solve this. We have to be smarter than the enemy and we have to think long term in our strategy. After all, this is a war of ideas and ideals and their strategy has been maturing since the 7th century; you don't get much more long term in your thinking than that and dropping a few bombs isn't going to solve this long term. Indeed, it will simply play into Da'esh's hands; as far as they are concerned, the final battle has been prophesied and Dabiq is the location and this is all part of getting us on to the battlefield. If force needs to be applied so be it, but apply it meaningfully and as part of a considered strategy.
Last edited by Melchett01; 14th Nov 2015 at 22:16.
Following appalling events like this - it is frustrating to think that from a purely technical point of view, if they had the political will, a Western Alliance could probably eliminate most of the core elements of ISIS in Syria and Iraq in a couple of months of a combined ground and air campaign... if not quicker (of course - it won't happen).
Would that address the problem of extremists already among us?
Personally I think it would.
Lance the boil and the rest of the infection clears up.
With all due respect to previous posters - I think we often over complicate the issue.
This is not part of the `great game' or some sort of geopolitical war of ideas that's been maturing since the 7th century in my view.
These people are lowbrow thugs - they are not masters of social media or clever strategists, or masters of asymetric warfare at all.
We give them too much credit.
I think the real dilemma for politicians is equally balanced between war weary electorates not having the stomach for another ground campaign, and the question of what would fill the vacuum were they removed?
Hollande's act of war statements are clearly telegraphing some significant escalation in Syria - intensifying air strikes - maybe increasing use of French special forces.
Would that address the problem of extremists already among us?
Personally I think it would.
Lance the boil and the rest of the infection clears up.
With all due respect to previous posters - I think we often over complicate the issue.
This is not part of the `great game' or some sort of geopolitical war of ideas that's been maturing since the 7th century in my view.
These people are lowbrow thugs - they are not masters of social media or clever strategists, or masters of asymetric warfare at all.
We give them too much credit.
I think the real dilemma for politicians is equally balanced between war weary electorates not having the stomach for another ground campaign, and the question of what would fill the vacuum were they removed?
Hollande's act of war statements are clearly telegraphing some significant escalation in Syria - intensifying air strikes - maybe increasing use of French special forces.
Last edited by tartare; 14th Nov 2015 at 22:28.
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Once Western leaders stop trying to impose the be-all and end-all of 'democracy' on Syria and let Assad get a grip of his country, then maybe there will be some stability in the Middle East. Ask the Israelis who they would rather have as their neighbour...
Brutal as he may have been and continue to be, what would we rather have? A stable, strong dictatorship or a bunch of fruitcakes intent on blowing up the world? (And I'm not referring to Reagan, Nixon, Brezhnev or Stalin...
)
Brutal as he may have been and continue to be, what would we rather have? A stable, strong dictatorship or a bunch of fruitcakes intent on blowing up the world? (And I'm not referring to Reagan, Nixon, Brezhnev or Stalin...
)
Melchett01
I think in most respects this local leader agrees with you.
Full interview with King Abdullah II of Jordan | euronews, the global conversation
I think in most respects this local leader agrees with you.
Full interview with King Abdullah II of Jordan | euronews, the global conversation
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From the BBC:
The Greek authorities say two people under investigation by the French police had registered in Greece as Syrian refugees. A Syrian passport was found near the body of one the attackers at the Stade de France.
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Why on earth does anyone think there is a military solution to this? This is an incredibly complex problem with no, one single answer. Invading yet another Middle Eastern country with no strategy on what to do next is simple stupidity. These terrorists aren't all Syrian and will just melt away to start up again elsewhere. If you invade Syria are you going to commit troops to Iraq too (Again!! )
Or perhaps ramp up Afghanistan again whilst we're at it!!
Or perhaps ramp up Afghanistan again whilst we're at it!!
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How many Allied troops would die on the ground invading these ****holes during another ultimately futile campaign? How many innocent civilians would die? Significantly more numbers than the terrorists are killing I'll wager. Look into the eyes of parents who lost kids in Iraq and Afghanistan and ask any of them if they believe they made any long term difference and was it worth it?
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A Greek colleague of mine who does a lot of work in the Middle East was chatting on Wednesday and musing on the fact that we think nothing of shipping ten thousand people a day to/from Sharm el Sheikh for their hols, that you can get anywhere in the world in 48 hours and with modern comms & media the whole world can listen to Western music, see western fashion, watch western TV & movies...
and then we're really surprised/astounded/appalled when they all turn up on the doorstep or when their problems become ours
and then we're really surprised/astounded/appalled when they all turn up on the doorstep or when their problems become ours
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Melchett01
I think in most respects this local leader agrees with you.
Full interview with King Abdullah II of Jordan | euronews, the global conversation
I think in most respects this local leader agrees with you.
Full interview with King Abdullah II of Jordan | euronews, the global conversation
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An ID card system may take a few years to implement, unlike in WW 2, and take 10 years or more to become effective. - PN
Let's not forget those involved in the London tube bombing and also one of the French involved in this incident would be legitimate legally entitled national identity card carriers., fat chance that the fact they hold a little piece of plastic would of had squat effect on them committing these crimes.
I also see Lord Carlisle is pushing his agenda in forcing through legislation on the back of this incident, not exactly democratic is it. I wouldn't mind, but during the TV interview he stated they already had the powers involved in it, so what is the point?
My condolences to those mixed up in these terrible events.
Last edited by NutLoose; 15th Nov 2015 at 16:49.