RAF Instructors - steely eyed or gentle and supportive ?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Not a QFI but an extrovert yarpie sqn cdr on Vulcans, retired as an AM, regularly punched his copilot sufficiently hard to give him a dead arm. Right bully but much adored.
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I had an Eastern European instructor (no names, no drills but the initials were JR) who was er, generous with a nav rule. His use of the English language was unique in my experience. I shall never forget him saying "I tell you once. I tell you twice but I no tell you a second time!" Looking back though he wasn't all bad. Happy days.
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Maybe Both
OK here is my confession, as a reluctant creamie QFI on the Hawk in 1982 I am willing to admit I was an awful instructor but this was an era when the RAF appeared to want steely eyed pilots.
Why? Because the Cold War was real and they, the Russians, never rolled into Germany because there were people on our side who would have nuked them into the stone age. Later on I was part of that role.
Why were RAF QFIs hard? Because the pace of training and the demands of flying and operating current 1982 fast jets was very high. My first student, Paul Gay, died on the other side of the airfield when things went wrong on finals and the board found that his QFI had stalled, others were not so sure.
So it boiled down to this, if there was doubt over the ability of a student pilot to proceed in fast jet training they were chopped. Paul Gay is a name on a piece of silver in a dusty cupboard in the mess and those that were chopped live on.
I was a better instructor later on when on a third tour at Valley.
Why? Because the Cold War was real and they, the Russians, never rolled into Germany because there were people on our side who would have nuked them into the stone age. Later on I was part of that role.
Why were RAF QFIs hard? Because the pace of training and the demands of flying and operating current 1982 fast jets was very high. My first student, Paul Gay, died on the other side of the airfield when things went wrong on finals and the board found that his QFI had stalled, others were not so sure.
So it boiled down to this, if there was doubt over the ability of a student pilot to proceed in fast jet training they were chopped. Paul Gay is a name on a piece of silver in a dusty cupboard in the mess and those that were chopped live on.
I was a better instructor later on when on a third tour at Valley.
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As one who fell/plummeted through the cracks ...
PPL ... Instructor was thoughtful, supportive and genial. I did OK, including going solo in 6 1/2 hours. (Piper Colt = simples)
RN Flying Grading ... First 3 trips in a Tiger Moth with a supportive [civvy] mentor [2 1/2 hours]. I was then transferred to another civvy "QFI" of the shouting, ranting, persuasion, who managed over the remaining 7 1/2 hours to completely obliterate my confidence and [minimal] skill as I tried to convert from nose-wheel to taildragger.
My only [small] consolation was that following my early retirement from the RN, and some questions being asked via our MP, "QFI 2" was no longer employed in the role. And, thanks for the offer RN, but no ... I didn't want to consider driving ships for a living
PPL ... Instructor was thoughtful, supportive and genial. I did OK, including going solo in 6 1/2 hours. (Piper Colt = simples)
RN Flying Grading ... First 3 trips in a Tiger Moth with a supportive [civvy] mentor [2 1/2 hours]. I was then transferred to another civvy "QFI" of the shouting, ranting, persuasion, who managed over the remaining 7 1/2 hours to completely obliterate my confidence and [minimal] skill as I tried to convert from nose-wheel to taildragger.
My only [small] consolation was that following my early retirement from the RN, and some questions being asked via our MP, "QFI 2" was no longer employed in the role. And, thanks for the offer RN, but no ... I didn't want to consider driving ships for a living
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Breaking it Gently.
Old, apocryphal story (surprised it hasn't come up yet)
Wartime QFI (Polish or Czech origin) to Stude:
"Smeeth !"...."Sir ?"...."Vot is your name ?"...."Smith, Sir !"...."No no, vot is your ozzer name ?"...."Robert, Sir"...."No no no, vot does your muzzer call you ?"....(bashfully) "Bobbie, Sir".
QFI (puts fatherly arm round stude's shoulders)...."Well, Bobbee - you're scrubbed !"
D.
Wartime QFI (Polish or Czech origin) to Stude:
"Smeeth !"...."Sir ?"...."Vot is your name ?"...."Smith, Sir !"...."No no, vot is your ozzer name ?"...."Robert, Sir"...."No no no, vot does your muzzer call you ?"....(bashfully) "Bobbie, Sir".
QFI (puts fatherly arm round stude's shoulders)...."Well, Bobbee - you're scrubbed !"
D.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
CG, I think one co did.
A few years later, when he was a staish, I held the door open for him and got a double handed punch below my rib cage. Like I said, a bully, but he did look after the troops.
A few years later, when he was a staish, I held the door open for him and got a double handed punch below my rib cage. Like I said, a bully, but he did look after the troops.
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Current CFS teaching
I think the modern CFS is very into coaching (which I think is something like baby led weaning applied to flight instruction). And I seem to recall the mantra is RCP. I think it means Ridicule, Criticise, Patronise but I might be wrong on that.
Thread Starter
You guys are good, it was indeed the JP training sequence from Fighter Pilot I was referring to - I picked up a 3 pack of "wannabee FP" DVDs including "Combat Pilot" and "617 - The Last Days Of a Vulcan Squadron".
I also clearly remember the original early Fighter Pilot series even now - right from the initial interviews and those strange follow-the-dots hand/eye coordination machines all the way through to the final selection where (as if by TV magic) only one of the entrants made it through to fly an actual Fighter, a milkman if I remember correctly and he went on to Buccaneers - strange facts stick in the memory. The scene where the Air Minister asked for questions from the students expecting them to ask about seats in the (then) new Tornado only to be caught off-guard with numerous complaints about them not getting their promised holidays was a particular highlight.
The "Creamie" concept in the RAF always surprised me, student straight to instructor with no squadron service always struck me as odd - I wonder if other established air forces do something similar, or maybe I'm misunderstanding the process.
I've done my own share of adult teaching, albeit in a different profession and I can testify that knocking the confidence out from under any student almost always guarantees a poor performance.
Kudos to those of you who made it through, I very much doubt I would have made it.
I also clearly remember the original early Fighter Pilot series even now - right from the initial interviews and those strange follow-the-dots hand/eye coordination machines all the way through to the final selection where (as if by TV magic) only one of the entrants made it through to fly an actual Fighter, a milkman if I remember correctly and he went on to Buccaneers - strange facts stick in the memory. The scene where the Air Minister asked for questions from the students expecting them to ask about seats in the (then) new Tornado only to be caught off-guard with numerous complaints about them not getting their promised holidays was a particular highlight.
The "Creamie" concept in the RAF always surprised me, student straight to instructor with no squadron service always struck me as odd - I wonder if other established air forces do something similar, or maybe I'm misunderstanding the process.
I've done my own share of adult teaching, albeit in a different profession and I can testify that knocking the confidence out from under any student almost always guarantees a poor performance.
Kudos to those of you who made it through, I very much doubt I would have made it.
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PN:
So he punched people when they were in no position to defend themselves.
Don't suppose he ever tried it midway through a drinking session did he?
Sounds like a BellEnd
I held the door open for him and got a double handed punch below my rib cage
Don't suppose he ever tried it midway through a drinking session did he?
Sounds like a BellEnd
He was indeed a bullying bell end. Although I gather that he once met his match, following which he wasn't quite so free with his fists any longer.
Reputedly he would turn up unannounced during exercises and mingle to hear the moans and bitches from the lads - much to Stn Cdrs' consternation.
He came to Brawdy in 1976 and was taken flying in a Hunter 7. The other pilot was also a Yarpie. The Line Chief had scoured the squadrons to find a pair of suitable groundcrew to assist; as the pilots settled in to their bang seats, a grinning black face appeared at the top of each ladder to help strap them in.....
This was the apartheid era; however, both Yarps thought it was a good jape!
Back to the thread - whether it's the smaller need for aircrew recruits meaning that only the best prospects are selected or better instructors, but I gather that the success rate from first flight to front line is much higher than hitherto.
Reputedly he would turn up unannounced during exercises and mingle to hear the moans and bitches from the lads - much to Stn Cdrs' consternation.
He came to Brawdy in 1976 and was taken flying in a Hunter 7. The other pilot was also a Yarpie. The Line Chief had scoured the squadrons to find a pair of suitable groundcrew to assist; as the pilots settled in to their bang seats, a grinning black face appeared at the top of each ladder to help strap them in.....
This was the apartheid era; however, both Yarps thought it was a good jape!
Back to the thread - whether it's the smaller need for aircrew recruits meaning that only the best prospects are selected or better instructors, but I gather that the success rate from first flight to front line is much higher than hitherto.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
ExRadar, you could say that but I couldn't possibly comment.
He used to carry a bull whip. In contrast, his OC Ops was a great guy, rugby player and Big enough . . . He also rose to AVM.
He used to carry a bull whip. In contrast, his OC Ops was a great guy, rugby player and Big enough . . . He also rose to AVM.
?
I am surprised one of the stars of the early part of Fighter Pilot hasn't commented on this. He was writing a book on the series, giving the true account, which I for one eagerly await! Where are you Martin?
My own experience and one which my Ex CO and I can laugh about now was not a happy one. Maybe I was just rubbish, I was eager to learn, but it just didn't happen for me, much to my dismay. Fighter Pilot was a very similar experience to what I had. Being whacked around the head didn't help either , sweating in a Bulldog cockpit. The chop when it came was EFATO, which I had never been shown.
Fast forward ten years later, I had to try again. Very nice ,calm, relaxed local flying club instructor, never once raised his voice or more importantly hand. Went solo after 7 hours and more ratings followed. The instructor is now a senior 767 Captain.
Personally I put it down to my being too young. My peers never seem to have had any trouble however. For all the disappointment that it brought, I wouldn't have missed it for the world and for that Boss I thank you!
My own experience and one which my Ex CO and I can laugh about now was not a happy one. Maybe I was just rubbish, I was eager to learn, but it just didn't happen for me, much to my dismay. Fighter Pilot was a very similar experience to what I had. Being whacked around the head didn't help either , sweating in a Bulldog cockpit. The chop when it came was EFATO, which I had never been shown.
Fast forward ten years later, I had to try again. Very nice ,calm, relaxed local flying club instructor, never once raised his voice or more importantly hand. Went solo after 7 hours and more ratings followed. The instructor is now a senior 767 Captain.
Personally I put it down to my being too young. My peers never seem to have had any trouble however. For all the disappointment that it brought, I wouldn't have missed it for the world and for that Boss I thank you!
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PN and others ... yes, Bullwhip was my Stn Cdr too. In the Bar he once punched me in the stomach [a complete surprise blow] and when I half-doubled up he said "What's the matter, aren't you fit?". Strange behaviour.
My first OC Ops there [or was it OC FW back then] was [I assume] that rugby player mentioned above, and was OK, although he had the perverse habit of opening the airfield at weekends for transport aircraft that could have easily used the H-24 transport airfield a dozen or so miles away. This did NOT go down well with those who were already on shift pattern Mon-Fri from early morning until late at night. He made ACM.
He was followed by a short, multi-talented, wg cdr, who held a drag race with Staish on the runway. Healey 3000 v Ferrari.
All 3 made Air Rank anyway - I doubt they posted 2nd division people into those jobs.
(Which has nothing to do with the topic ... please excuse nostalgic rambling)
My first OC Ops there [or was it OC FW back then] was [I assume] that rugby player mentioned above, and was OK, although he had the perverse habit of opening the airfield at weekends for transport aircraft that could have easily used the H-24 transport airfield a dozen or so miles away. This did NOT go down well with those who were already on shift pattern Mon-Fri from early morning until late at night. He made ACM.
He was followed by a short, multi-talented, wg cdr, who held a drag race with Staish on the runway. Healey 3000 v Ferrari.
All 3 made Air Rank anyway - I doubt they posted 2nd division people into those jobs.
(Which has nothing to do with the topic ... please excuse nostalgic rambling)
Last edited by MPN11; 20th Oct 2015 at 13:31. Reason: grammar
Some on here may have learned to fly on Flying Scholarship at Sywell in the 50s and 60s and recall an irascible instructor by the name of Les Hilditch. After him, any instructor was benign!
Struggling on JP3s at 7 FTS, my instructors and flight commander did their best for me, nothing like the bloke on "Fighter Pilot", which was still fresh in the memory back then. My chop ride with the deputy flight commander of B Flight was a different matter though. No complaints about the miserable outcome, but what an a******e.
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OK here is my confession, as a reluctant creamie QFI on the Hawk in 1982 I am willing to admit I was an awful instructor but this was an era when the RAF appeared to want steely eyed pilots.
Why? Because the Cold War was real and they, the Russians, never rolled into Germany because there were people on our side who would have nuked them into the stone age. Later on I was part of that role.
Why were RAF QFIs hard? Because the pace of training and the demands of flying and operating current 1982 fast jets was very high.
Why? Because the Cold War was real and they, the Russians, never rolled into Germany because there were people on our side who would have nuked them into the stone age. Later on I was part of that role.
Why were RAF QFIs hard? Because the pace of training and the demands of flying and operating current 1982 fast jets was very high.
"Nobody wants to go to war with a w@nker on your wing".
I know I certainly wouldn't have wanted to.