Shoreline displays - a new can of worms?
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Shoreline displays - a new can of worms?
Following the Hunter accident - which is not the point of this thread - everyone seems to be climbing on the 'over sea' bandwagon for flying displays, but aren't we now increasing the safety risk for the aircrew involved.
On a nice clear day, with unlimited visibility, a bit of wind to give texture to the surface and a clearly defined coastline it can be fairly straightforward - and I mean no disrespect to those participating. However, start taking away some of those factors, particularly a smooth/calm sea with little wind allied with reduced visibility or full cloud cover and it becomes much harder to judge a lot of things. Turn away from the coastline and sudden disorientation can occur, a smooth sea can make the surface almost impossible to see (OK, gates and altimeters both rad and baro will help, but the Mk 1 eyeball can be fooled). Of note my worst case of disorientation occurred just in a gentle turn away from the coast at 100ft in what seemed like 'adequate' conditions for the demo in hand.
I would assume weather limits for over-water displays would have to be improved, and pilots/aircrew would have to practice a little more for that scenario. AFAIK there have been no accidents so far at shoreline air displays due to weather (although as usual stand to be corrected), but would appreciate other views on the subject.
On a nice clear day, with unlimited visibility, a bit of wind to give texture to the surface and a clearly defined coastline it can be fairly straightforward - and I mean no disrespect to those participating. However, start taking away some of those factors, particularly a smooth/calm sea with little wind allied with reduced visibility or full cloud cover and it becomes much harder to judge a lot of things. Turn away from the coastline and sudden disorientation can occur, a smooth sea can make the surface almost impossible to see (OK, gates and altimeters both rad and baro will help, but the Mk 1 eyeball can be fooled). Of note my worst case of disorientation occurred just in a gentle turn away from the coast at 100ft in what seemed like 'adequate' conditions for the demo in hand.
I would assume weather limits for over-water displays would have to be improved, and pilots/aircrew would have to practice a little more for that scenario. AFAIK there have been no accidents so far at shoreline air displays due to weather (although as usual stand to be corrected), but would appreciate other views on the subject.
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I've never flown a demo/display flight over water, but being a carrier pilot and a P-3 pilot I have spent a LOT of flight time over water. On a hazy day with a high overcast it can be exceedingly difficult to see the horizon. The sky and water just blend together and its like flying inside a light bulb where all your attitude cues just go away. And over smooth/still water your speed cues go away as do your altitude cues. And if you're flying near high shoreline cliffs, your eye can mistake the cliff face for the ground which can be disorienting. And shorelines tend to have lots of birds in the air. So you make a good point. The cure may be worse than the illness.
Last edited by KenV; 27th Aug 2015 at 17:06.
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I was taught at Finningley to increase height to 500ft when crossing the coast at LL because of the bird-strike hazard! I assume that it still applies? I also remember one of the Reds hitting the mast on a yacht in the distant past.
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I guess if it gets forced in to service as the only way to continue with vintage jet displays, then more will be cancelled due to weather related issues.
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Seagulls, seagulls and more seagulls... That's my worry.
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I agree with Shackman and KenV: as a maritime aviator I know that manoeuvring over water can be far more hazardous than over land due to lack of texture and other visual cues. That's one of the reasons why the pre-spinning checks include "not over the sea". The sea is not the easy, benign environment that people think it is.
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@KenV
If weather is bad, airshow flights are cancelled over water.
@Wensleydale
Planes at coastline airshows are below 500ft for sure! Bird strikes would seem to be more of an issue with prop aircraft, with jets the birds can't get away fast enough.
@Random Bloke
Beacons or indicators of some kind could be placed in the sea to give some indication to pilot, if they felt they needed it. They seem to be doing ok without though!
If weather is bad, airshow flights are cancelled over water.
@Wensleydale
Planes at coastline airshows are below 500ft for sure! Bird strikes would seem to be more of an issue with prop aircraft, with jets the birds can't get away fast enough.
@Random Bloke
Beacons or indicators of some kind could be placed in the sea to give some indication to pilot, if they felt they needed it. They seem to be doing ok without though!
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1000ft, not 500ft.
And at right-angles.
This applies to fast-jets. Not sure about rotary or multis.
And at right-angles.
This applies to fast-jets. Not sure about rotary or multis.
Would imagine wokka mates get a nosebleed above 100', let alone 1,000'.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Would imagine wokka mates get a nosebleed above 100', let alone 1,000'.
Taking away the aviation issues there is also the question of revenue. Going to an airfield based display ain't cheap as there are a lot of outgoings. Where is the money going to come from when you cannot have a captive paying audience?
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I think you'll find there are big indicators (inflatable usually) placed in the sea as a datum at most coastal events as a matter of requirement.
I was on a Nimrod display crew that displayed in Toronto over Lake Ontario.
Displaying in that area was very difficult with reduced visibility and the geographic constraints of displaying near to downtown Toronto. A fire tender was used to spray water cannons that marked the display datum, but this was often hard to see.
I guess my point is that displaying over water is not a simple as one would think, and adds an extra dimension to an already brain-engaging activity.
Displaying in that area was very difficult with reduced visibility and the geographic constraints of displaying near to downtown Toronto. A fire tender was used to spray water cannons that marked the display datum, but this was often hard to see.
I guess my point is that displaying over water is not a simple as one would think, and adds an extra dimension to an already brain-engaging activity.
Shoreline displays - a new can of worms?
I never really felt comfortable doing an overwater display, not just because most of my work up was done down on a runway, but you are generally so far from the crowd line (for a helo) that the punters don't see the display. Obviously, overwater practices were a prerequisite before the public display. A minor drawback is, apart from shows like Southport, Jersey and Plymouth there is no opportunity to do a static afterwards and meet the public.
Last edited by chinook240; 27th Aug 2015 at 20:10.
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Yes, markers or buoys can be used to aid alignment but they can create other issues. I've seen plenty of pilots lose SA while flying round the buoys in D001 and D807 and another get disoriented with the approach buoys at Gibraltar. I am not saying that it can't be done but I do suggest that it needs a lot of thought before it becomes policy and a lot of practice, more so than over land, until it is safe.
That's one of the reasons why the pre-spinning checks include "not over the sea". The sea is not the easy, benign environment that people think it is.
Gentleman Aviator
Would imagine wokka mates get a nosebleed above 100', let alone 1,000'.
but you get this awful crunching noise if you coast in around Dover at around 100'.
Not many days that wouldn't work......
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ISTR a Master Green Break Off at Manston of 50ft QFE
Sorry, slight thread drift, back to subject. Reading the replies so far would seem to indicate a similar feeling of disquiet for overwater manoeuvering. I have a goodly number of hours over water in both fixed wing and rotary and much as I like to watch displays I think the safety case might need further investigation.
Shoreline displays - a new can of worms?
Overwater displays are already highly successful , mainly because they are free! I believe one claims an audience of 500,000 over the w/e. Display lines are generally further from the crowd than A/F so have less impact.