Commissioned Vs NCO Pilots
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My understanding is that Warrant Officer pilots were (sometimes) offered commissions and proceeded through commissioned ranks. I believe that at the end of the war if they wanted to stay in, they reverted.
Warrant Officer
WARRANT OFFICER
Warrant Officers are the technical experts in the Army. They have specific technical or tactical specialties (e.g., helicopter pilots), and manage and maintain many of the Army’s combat systems, vehicles and networks. Once they reach the rank of Chief Warrant Officer Two (CW2), the President of the United States gives them the same status as a Commissioned Officer.
CHIEF WARRANT OFFICER 2
CHIEF WARRANT OFFICER 2 (CW2)
Chief Warrant Officers become commissioned officers as provided by the President of the United States. CW2s are intermediate level technical and tactical experts who perform increased duties and responsibilities at the detachment through battalion levels.
Source http://www.army.mil/symbols/warrantdescription.html
WARRANT OFFICER
Warrant Officers are the technical experts in the Army. They have specific technical or tactical specialties (e.g., helicopter pilots), and manage and maintain many of the Army’s combat systems, vehicles and networks. Once they reach the rank of Chief Warrant Officer Two (CW2), the President of the United States gives them the same status as a Commissioned Officer.
CHIEF WARRANT OFFICER 2
CHIEF WARRANT OFFICER 2 (CW2)
Chief Warrant Officers become commissioned officers as provided by the President of the United States. CW2s are intermediate level technical and tactical experts who perform increased duties and responsibilities at the detachment through battalion levels.
Source http://www.army.mil/symbols/warrantdescription.html
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From Wiki,
Their rank insignia was now a freework pin of crossed quill pens on either side of the freework "U.S." pins worn on the standing collar of the M1909 tunic. They were not permitted the brown mohair cuff braid band of an Army officer but were authorized a silver-and-black braid hatcord for wear with the M1911 Campaign Hat and the officer's "G.I. Eagle" on the M1902 peaked cap.
On 9 July 1918, Congress established the rank and grade of warrant officer
Army Air Forces flight officer rank insignia of World War II.
D.
Their rank insignia was now a freework pin of crossed quill pens on either side of the freework "U.S." pins worn on the standing collar of the M1909 tunic. They were not permitted the brown mohair cuff braid band of an Army officer but were authorized a silver-and-black braid hatcord for wear with the M1911 Campaign Hat and the officer's "G.I. Eagle" on the M1902 peaked cap.
On 9 July 1918, Congress established the rank and grade of warrant officer
Army Air Forces flight officer rank insignia of World War II.
D.
Once they reach the rank of Chief Warrant Officer Two (CW2), the President of the United States gives them the same status as a Commissioned Officer.
And if they were visiting a UK military establishment which Mess would they (the CW2) be hosted by/stay in?
And, yes, I have read the lengthy, funny, and very 'informative' threads on these subjects over on the Army site but just want to see the light blue viewpoint.
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The subject of US WO/CWO was beaten into submission on ARRSE some years ago, contributed to vigorously by a WO who went strangely silent after a while at Fort Rucker. Sadly missed on that Forum ... he was desperately funny/inept.
Any idea of BritMil fully grasping the US CWO concept is challenging, although chinook240 quotes accurately and usefully. I had a friend who went from being a regular Lt Col to CWO in the National Guard. You have to know them to understand it.
It's a bit like RAF Specialist Aircrew, without the full Queen's Commission. They're there for their special skills, but without the broad 'command' responsibilities and career progression.
"I only want to fly aircraft, stuff the rest of the bulls***." Does that have any RAF resonance?
Any idea of BritMil fully grasping the US CWO concept is challenging, although chinook240 quotes accurately and usefully. I had a friend who went from being a regular Lt Col to CWO in the National Guard. You have to know them to understand it.
It's a bit like RAF Specialist Aircrew, without the full Queen's Commission. They're there for their special skills, but without the broad 'command' responsibilities and career progression.
"I only want to fly aircraft, stuff the rest of the bulls***." Does that have any RAF resonance?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
A CWO ferried a Bronco to Europe. He stayed in the OM at Lossie. His right was questioned and accepted.
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Absolutely, PN.
The differences are challenging, but Lossie was absolutely RIGHT. The rank badges are a clue.
The differences are challenging, but Lossie was absolutely RIGHT. The rank badges are a clue.
Surely if you are commissioned in the Royal Air Force, spec. aircrew or otherwise, you still hold a full Queen's commission. As I remember, spec. aircrew were merely restricted in the rank that they could gain, Squadron Leader. Still a fully commissioned officer!
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about the US:
"The duties Marine warrant officers typically fulfill are those that would normally call for the authority of a (unrestricted line) commissioned officer, however, require an additional level of technical proficiency and practical experience that a commissioned officer would not have had the opportunity to achieve."
and
"Though in theory warrant officers are specialists, in contrast to commissioned officers who are generalists, warrant Officers may occupy positions within the military that are normally held by more senior commissioned officers, especially in the Navy where chief warrant officers often fill lieutenant and lieutenant commander billets."
About the salute question...treating guests respectfully is never a bad idea 
and there are various subtleties...eg the (US) sergeant major of the army salutes all commissioned officers, and at the same time, according to the department of the army precedence list, takes (ceremonial) precedence before lieutenant generals. My point being, precedence is derived from his billet here, not rank. He'll still keep saluting every officer, although it's probably rare that he'll report to them. If someone would chose to salute a US CW who has a commission from the US president, while serving in a job that is also done by unrestricted line officers, I can't see how that would be terribly wrong. At the same time, if someone choses not to salute, they probably won't get court-martialed...
it's a pleasure to read all the previous discussions, like http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...formation.html
"The duties Marine warrant officers typically fulfill are those that would normally call for the authority of a (unrestricted line) commissioned officer, however, require an additional level of technical proficiency and practical experience that a commissioned officer would not have had the opportunity to achieve."
and
"Though in theory warrant officers are specialists, in contrast to commissioned officers who are generalists, warrant Officers may occupy positions within the military that are normally held by more senior commissioned officers, especially in the Navy where chief warrant officers often fill lieutenant and lieutenant commander billets."
About the salute question
...treating guests respectfully is never a bad idea and there are various subtleties...eg the (US) sergeant major of the army salutes all commissioned officers, and at the same time, according to the department of the army precedence list, takes (ceremonial) precedence before lieutenant generals. My point being, precedence is derived from his billet here, not rank. He'll still keep saluting every officer, although it's probably rare that he'll report to them. If someone would chose to salute a US CW who has a commission from the US president, while serving in a job that is also done by unrestricted line officers, I can't see how that would be terribly wrong. At the same time, if someone choses not to salute, they probably won't get court-martialed...it's a pleasure to read all the previous discussions, like http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...formation.html
Last edited by deptrai; 24th Aug 2015 at 17:15.
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Ah, our old friend "Chief Two" [and other similar names he used! 
The guy had stamina ... he never stopped beating the "Salute me, I'm a CWO" drum!
The guy had stamina ... he never stopped beating the "Salute me, I'm a CWO" drum!
Royalistflyer I've got a few publications on RAF insignia and haven't been able to find the badge you describe worn as a sleeve badge. What you describe is the badge worn on the officers' field service cap (sidecap) but in gilt, not bronze, so I am at a loss. In any case I think we have established that there was never such a rank as "commissioned warrant officer" in the RAF (as opposed to warrant officers who had been commissioned, of whom there were lots!)
Bill, you are quite correct. I held a supplementary list as opposed to a general list commission - I think thats what MPN 11 is alluding to, but as far as I was concerned it was still a "full" queen's commission.
Bill, you are quite correct. I held a supplementary list as opposed to a general list commission - I think thats what MPN 11 is alluding to, but as far as I was concerned it was still a "full" queen's commission.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TTN with all powers associated with that rank and seniority. Of course your V-Force captains were frequently more junior and proper Cranditz officers got the 'real' sqn duties (until they cocked up).
Remember one sqn plans officer who was shuffled off and replaced by an old, hairy ex-wg air plans officer. (Ken White,ex Cottesmore, ex 50)
Remember one sqn plans officer who was shuffled off and replaced by an old, hairy ex-wg air plans officer. (Ken White,ex Cottesmore, ex 50)
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There were two Sergeants' messes at RAF Waddington during the war which helped to keep the two factions separate .....the original Sgts' Mess was in the building that now houses the police headquarters as you enter on the left past the guardroom...the large influx of aircrew sergeants was housed in a larger block known as the Aircrew Sgts' Mess which eventually became the Sgts' Mess after the war (the non-aircrew mess becoming the Corporals' Club). The Aircrew Sgts' Mess was replaced by a new mess building a few years ago - the Aircrew Mess is now known as Sentry Block.
Gentleman Aviator
One recalls when the first direct entry AQM crewmen arrived at the secret Hampshire Helicopter Base in the early 70s (?) to join the aged M Sigs, M Engs etc.
Known as the "Quartermaster Experiment" (geddit?
) they were mostly scarce-bearded youths. Allegedly, one of their number could not be served at the bar in the Sgts' Mess as he was not yet 18. 
I can't confirm that one, but there WAS definitely a sign at the bar:
"Aircrew Acting Sergeants only served if Accompanied by an Adult"
Known as the "Quartermaster Experiment" (geddit?
) they were mostly scarce-bearded youths. Allegedly, one of their number could not be served at the bar in the Sgts' Mess as he was not yet 18. I can't confirm that one, but there WAS definitely a sign at the bar:
"Aircrew Acting Sergeants only served if Accompanied by an Adult"
Allegedly, one of their number could not be served at the bar in the Sgts' Mess as he was not yet 18.
Some of the previous posts re the U.S. CWO rank, have once more enlightened my feeble brain, and a big thanks for all who posted and explained the rank. As a SNCO (RAF) I was posted to Machrihanish in the early 80s to run the Visiting Aircraft Serving Section (VASS). On one occasion during the 2 year 6 month tour we were informed of a UC12B arriving with a "bigwig" on board. White overalls for the marshallers and as we had both USN Seals and a rather large USN Aviation Weapon Facility on the unit, a reception committee of our own Staish (A Wing Commander) and the OCs of both US units lodging on Machrihanish. The chap who stepped off the UC12B was "getting on a bit" but was saluted by all three of the Stations senior officers, he duly returned their salute. I was later informed by one of the SEALS that he was the Chief Warrant Officer for the European theatre. Having read the previous posts, I'm no longer in awe of a Warrant Officer that command both the respect of senior officers, and, his own personal aircraft and crew. Thanks again all. You learn something new every day, if you follow PPRUNE!
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