Commissioned Vs NCO Pilots
To me the more important question is why the RAF insist on a very high standard of education (A levels or degree I understand). As someone who had 4 'O' levels and a CSE grade one in Design Studies I managed to spend 9 years flying fast jets. Yes the academics were a struggle, but if you're determined and have some sort of natural ability then you can succeed. I also had a spell as a QFI and being a Uni graduate made no difference what so ever.
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I recall a Flt Sgt in the Schools building at Halton in the early '60s wore pilot's wings and a DFC among other ribbons, and the WO I/c the Airmens Mess at Laarbruch in 1970 had an air gunner's half-wing along with a pathfinder badge and a chestful of ribbons.
x ray - I only had O level maths too, and no sciences other than biology and still managed to pass my nav course, but I have to say I occasionally found the lack of a maths/science background a disavantage. Some chaps I knew went on to do the Spec N course, and to be honest I think I would have struggled with that.
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MPN11 (your #40),
".........(or are a little out of date) one can now join the RAF as a Direct Entry Air Traffic Controller - with the rank of Sgt!........"
I'm 43 years out of date now, but I recall that around the mid-sixties we started getting in Direct Entry (Short Service) Commissioned young ladies and gentlemen into the ATC Branch. After the statutory four or five (?) month's hard labour at Henlow, and a further four at Shawbury (where they were introduced to the arcane mysteries of ATC by old gentlemen like myself), they were let loose on the RAF's twin-winged Lords of the Air (with, on the whole, satisfactory results).
We of the Old Brigade, who had "borne the burdens and the heat of the day" in the air and on the ground for the last quarter-century, might have been resentful of these Johnnies-come-lately who had been "handed on a plate" what had taken us so long to achieve. But, as most of us were just "marking-time" before retirement anyway, it didn't seem to matter and we mixed in well enough.
"The Old Order Changeth, Giving Place to New". It was their Air Force now.
True, but you also need the base of that pyramid to be kept up to strength ! In the fifties the young men of Britain, suspicious of the specious promises of a glowing future held out to them by the (then) Air Ministry, largely spurned them. Natural wastage was starting to crumble the base. What to do ?
Only one thing, really. Hang on to the people you've got on the bottom already. So, in '52, they introduced the "Limited Career Permanent Commission". Originally it was open only in the Air Traffic and Fighter Control Branches, but later in the year it was extended to GD (Pilot) as well (I think these last later morphed into "Branch" Officers, with a chance of Squadron Leader).
The deal was simple: We will keep you on till age 50 and then give you a pension. You will not get past Flight Lieutenant (however many Promotion Exams you may have passed). Take it or leave it ! It was not successful enough in its original form, so in '60 "selected" (in practice, all the) ones who had taken the bait in '50 were offered an extension to age 55 (but with the free option of PVR at age 50).
What could you lose ? I took the option to extend to 55, but PVR'd at 50.
Danny.
(with currently 65 year's seniority as Flight Lieutenant - shouldn't I get a gold watch, or a medal or something ?)
".........(or are a little out of date) one can now join the RAF as a Direct Entry Air Traffic Controller - with the rank of Sgt!........"
I'm 43 years out of date now, but I recall that around the mid-sixties we started getting in Direct Entry (Short Service) Commissioned young ladies and gentlemen into the ATC Branch. After the statutory four or five (?) month's hard labour at Henlow, and a further four at Shawbury (where they were introduced to the arcane mysteries of ATC by old gentlemen like myself), they were let loose on the RAF's twin-winged Lords of the Air (with, on the whole, satisfactory results).
We of the Old Brigade, who had "borne the burdens and the heat of the day" in the air and on the ground for the last quarter-century, might have been resentful of these Johnnies-come-lately who had been "handed on a plate" what had taken us so long to achieve. But, as most of us were just "marking-time" before retirement anyway, it didn't seem to matter and we mixed in well enough.
"The Old Order Changeth, Giving Place to New". It was their Air Force now.
* * *
Now your: ".....One needs an officer pyramid to feed the various leadership/staff jobs....."True, but you also need the base of that pyramid to be kept up to strength ! In the fifties the young men of Britain, suspicious of the specious promises of a glowing future held out to them by the (then) Air Ministry, largely spurned them. Natural wastage was starting to crumble the base. What to do ?
Only one thing, really. Hang on to the people you've got on the bottom already. So, in '52, they introduced the "Limited Career Permanent Commission". Originally it was open only in the Air Traffic and Fighter Control Branches, but later in the year it was extended to GD (Pilot) as well (I think these last later morphed into "Branch" Officers, with a chance of Squadron Leader).
The deal was simple: We will keep you on till age 50 and then give you a pension. You will not get past Flight Lieutenant (however many Promotion Exams you may have passed). Take it or leave it ! It was not successful enough in its original form, so in '60 "selected" (in practice, all the) ones who had taken the bait in '50 were offered an extension to age 55 (but with the free option of PVR at age 50).
What could you lose ? I took the option to extend to 55, but PVR'd at 50.
Danny.
(with currently 65 year's seniority as Flight Lieutenant - shouldn't I get a gold watch, or a medal or something ?)
I get the impression that many of the academic requirements are merely there as a filter to get the number of applicants down to a manageable number.
At the end of the day, they don't want the best pilots in the world in the seats, only applicants that can pass the selection and courses.
At the end of the day, they don't want the best pilots in the world in the seats, only applicants that can pass the selection and courses.
it was extended to GD (Pilot) as well (I think these last later morphed into "Branch" Officers, with a chance of Squadron Leader).
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Fed, the ladder tie was supplementary list IIRC.
With the B exam you also had 10-12 year fg off, shed loads of experience,no responsibility, and plenty of attitude. Remember Dinger Bell in Cyprus, around 1972, cheeses off when he got automatic promotion though I think sqn cdrs could get it differred for a year or more.
Happy days.
With the B exam you also had 10-12 year fg off, shed loads of experience,no responsibility, and plenty of attitude. Remember Dinger Bell in Cyprus, around 1972, cheeses off when he got automatic promotion though I think sqn cdrs could get it differred for a year or more.
Happy days.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
X-Ray, 4 GCE or 5, filter indeed and more than you might think.
I remember an FE at Lindholme in 1963 going on about it.
Read the Daily Mirror - with 4 O-levels you could become a sgt aircrew.
Read the Daily Telegraph - with 5 O-levels you could become an officer.
In 1962 we had two airmen, one a call A/Sgt and the other a Sgt Sig, both retraining as navigator s and both passed out as Sgt Nav in 1963 but even then the writing was on the wall. Their postings were limited to the kipper fleet IIRC.
I remember an FE at Lindholme in 1963 going on about it.
Read the Daily Mirror - with 4 O-levels you could become a sgt aircrew.
Read the Daily Telegraph - with 5 O-levels you could become an officer.
In 1962 we had two airmen, one a call A/Sgt and the other a Sgt Sig, both retraining as navigator s and both passed out as Sgt Nav in 1963 but even then the writing was on the wall. Their postings were limited to the kipper fleet IIRC.
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As one of the "5 O-Level" Direct Entrants, I was immensely grateful for the RAF's desire to recruit and train young officers to become Danny42C's successors in ATC without demanding too many academic qualifications. I'm sure my 6th O-Level* was, however, the key to my subsequent modest career success 
As a small digression, my various visits to OASC [first at Hornchurch, subsequently at Biggin] clearly eventually impressed the Secetion Board.
Persistence paid off in both areas
As a small digression, my various visits to OASC [first at Hornchurch, subsequently at Biggin] clearly eventually impressed the Secetion Board.
1. "Test in advance" for Permanent commission via Cranwell. Rejected [not our sort of chap?]
2. ATC Flying Scholarship. Thank you for my PPL
3. RN Aptitude testing before rest of selection process at Gosport. Commissioned as Officer Cadet, failed Flying Grading at BRNC Dartmouth.
4. Applied for Supplementary List commission as GD(G)ATC. Yesses .... success.
Two humorous moments I recall vividly:2. ATC Flying Scholarship. Thank you for my PPL
3. RN Aptitude testing before rest of selection process at Gosport. Commissioned as Officer Cadet, failed Flying Grading at BRNC Dartmouth.
4. Applied for Supplementary List commission as GD(G)ATC. Yesses .... success.
The barman at the Candidates Mess at Biggin ... "Hello, Sir. Back again?" This did not enhance the mood of my fellow candidates within earshot!
The Selection Board, looking at an extremely fat file that really deserved to be in 2 parts ... "Good morning, Mr MPN11, I see you have been here before."
* #5 and #6 obtained after a year of 'further training' in whet the school called 'The General Sixth Form'. The Selection Board, looking at an extremely fat file that really deserved to be in 2 parts ... "Good morning, Mr MPN11, I see you have been here before."
Persistence paid off in both areas
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To me the more important question is why the RAF insist on a very high standard of education (A levels or degree I understand).
Most graduates 'in non-graduate jobs', says CIPD - BBC News
When I was a ULAS student pilot, one of our QFIs had somehow managed to join the RAF (as an officer), with just 4 'O' levels.
Even though 'O' levels really meant something back then, he wasn't the brightest tool in the box - and his bumbling attempts to teach us about the triangle of velocities one Thursday night were nothing short of hilarious!
Even though 'O' levels really meant something back then, he wasn't the brightest tool in the box - and his bumbling attempts to teach us about the triangle of velocities one Thursday night were nothing short of hilarious!
Some of us Colonials didn't have to bother with Biggin Hill; we were assessed by the recruiters we drank in the bar with. I was assessed in Salisbury, now Harare in March 1960. I signed the dotted line in the first week in April. The paper I signed rattled on about a Direct Commission for 12 years with an option at 5 years and 8 years. Apparently this commission was replaced by the Direct Entry Commission (12 years with only an 8 year option) on the April 1st so I wasn't actually on any legal engagement.
When I was severely unenthusiastic about serving as a co-pilot in the V force I brought this up. Two very senior officers told me to wind my neck in.
It got me on to helicopters, though. The best move in my life.
When I was severely unenthusiastic about serving as a co-pilot in the V force I brought this up. Two very senior officers told me to wind my neck in.
It got me on to helicopters, though. The best move in my life.
I graduated as a Sergeant Pilot in the RAAF in December 1952. On my OTU course (Mustangs and single seat Vampires) there were five NCO pilots and five commissioned Pilot Officers who had graduated about the same time as us sergeants at Point Cook after a four year degree and permanent commission. In other words career officers. All good blokes.
All were destined to go directly on operations during the Korean war. After successfully passing the Mustang part of the course I went on to the Vampires where later to my chagrin my air to air cine camera gunnery results were unsatisfactory so I got scrubbed.
All the fighter combat instructors (FCI) at the OTU had just returned from Korea after a 100 missions and were short service commissioned officers having been promoted from NCO rank after leaving Korea. Briefings on fighter tactics were held every day before flying. But one very rarely got to talk with individual FCI's during the day since all flying was in single seat fighters. What I remember however was at the end of each day the instructors would go back to the Officers Mess and have a few beers. I am sure that over the Officers Mess bar they would impart pearls of fighter wisdom to the Pilot Officer graduates as the evening wore on. At the same time, on the other side of the parade ground, we NCO pilots would retire to the Sergeants Mess and learn nothing by watching the old shell-back senior NCO's talk about their wartime ground staff experiences. As 20 year old NCO pilots we were seen as sprogs and not worth talking to.
This is where the NCO pilot system fell down in my view. There was immense value in being able to talk to our instructors after work over the days flying and real life experience war stories discussed over a friendly beer.
The recently graduated Pilot Officers from the RAAF College had that advantage because, after all, their instructors were in the same Officers Mess. I often think we NCO pilots missed out badly in this regard. Some years later the RAAF scrubbed the NCO pilot policy and everyone graduated as Pilot Officers.
Finally, I remember the occasion in the OCU crew rooms when one of the FCI's was a decorated former Spitfire pilot who was heavily involved in the European air battles. He held his coffee in his hand while he chatted casually to another FCI - this time a Pilot Officer who won a DFC in Korea. The discussion was on radar controlled AA guns used by the Germans and the tactics needed to minimise the chances of being shot down by these fearsome weapons.
As a 20 year old sergeant with a mere 230 flying hours in my log book, I was very keen to listen in to their conversation and maybe learn something to save my own skin if I went to Korea. But because of the difference in rank I was too shy to butt in to join the two men. I tried to pick up their conversation within ear shot without being obvious. That didn't work so I found myself drifting to another part of the briefing room to read a survival pamphlet. As it turned out I never got to Korea so I missed nothing.
All were destined to go directly on operations during the Korean war. After successfully passing the Mustang part of the course I went on to the Vampires where later to my chagrin my air to air cine camera gunnery results were unsatisfactory so I got scrubbed.
All the fighter combat instructors (FCI) at the OTU had just returned from Korea after a 100 missions and were short service commissioned officers having been promoted from NCO rank after leaving Korea. Briefings on fighter tactics were held every day before flying. But one very rarely got to talk with individual FCI's during the day since all flying was in single seat fighters. What I remember however was at the end of each day the instructors would go back to the Officers Mess and have a few beers. I am sure that over the Officers Mess bar they would impart pearls of fighter wisdom to the Pilot Officer graduates as the evening wore on. At the same time, on the other side of the parade ground, we NCO pilots would retire to the Sergeants Mess and learn nothing by watching the old shell-back senior NCO's talk about their wartime ground staff experiences. As 20 year old NCO pilots we were seen as sprogs and not worth talking to.
This is where the NCO pilot system fell down in my view. There was immense value in being able to talk to our instructors after work over the days flying and real life experience war stories discussed over a friendly beer.
The recently graduated Pilot Officers from the RAAF College had that advantage because, after all, their instructors were in the same Officers Mess. I often think we NCO pilots missed out badly in this regard. Some years later the RAAF scrubbed the NCO pilot policy and everyone graduated as Pilot Officers.
Finally, I remember the occasion in the OCU crew rooms when one of the FCI's was a decorated former Spitfire pilot who was heavily involved in the European air battles. He held his coffee in his hand while he chatted casually to another FCI - this time a Pilot Officer who won a DFC in Korea. The discussion was on radar controlled AA guns used by the Germans and the tactics needed to minimise the chances of being shot down by these fearsome weapons.
As a 20 year old sergeant with a mere 230 flying hours in my log book, I was very keen to listen in to their conversation and maybe learn something to save my own skin if I went to Korea. But because of the difference in rank I was too shy to butt in to join the two men. I tried to pick up their conversation within ear shot without being obvious. That didn't work so I found myself drifting to another part of the briefing room to read a survival pamphlet. As it turned out I never got to Korea so I missed nothing.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Centaurus, even in the 60s it was changing. The biggest change was perhaps wives . . .
Then the age gap with old men, 26 or so, not wishing to shoot lines with sprogs, and your really old bemedalled 40-45 year olds particularly reticent. Very occasionally a gem was dropped:
"My only mission was the day after the dams raid. The IntO said there would be no flak." His name was in the Bomber Command diaries.
"The FOB said whenever nothing else was planned we should fly strikes down the Loire Valley. I was asked after the French complained if I had check the Master FOB." He was a Spitfire sqn cdr post war and remained a sqn ldr for next 20 years.
Then the age gap with old men, 26 or so, not wishing to shoot lines with sprogs, and your really old bemedalled 40-45 year olds particularly reticent. Very occasionally a gem was dropped:
"My only mission was the day after the dams raid. The IntO said there would be no flak." His name was in the Bomber Command diaries.
"The FOB said whenever nothing else was planned we should fly strikes down the Loire Valley. I was asked after the French complained if I had check the Master FOB." He was a Spitfire sqn cdr post war and remained a sqn ldr for next 20 years.